Calvinistic Straw Man Argument

[TibiasDad]

If God is Sovereign, and thus cannot be unwillingly subjected to any other power, then the argument that a human action can “earn” something from God is a logical impossibility and therefore, it is a logical fallacy to argue that Arminians make that claim.

God cannot be obligated by anything outside of himself, and thus “works” in the sense that our actions can obligate God to save us simply based on our completion of a requirement, is a straw man argument.

We do not assert any such notion, and in fact deny its very possibility! Works cannot save because God cannot be obligated by them! That is why salvation is always a gracious gift realized through faith, not by our works, whereby we can say we deserve it! Two undeniable truths are these: God is never obligated to us, and we are never deserving of his goodness.


Doug

 

[civic]

Amen !!!

 

[Presby02]

If God is Sovereign, and thus cannot be unwillingly subjected to any other power, then the argument that a human action can “earn” something from God is a logical impossibility and therefore, it is a logical fallacy to argue that Arminians make that claim.

God cannot be obligated by anything outside of himself, and thus “works” in the sense that our actions can obligate God to save us simply based on our completion of a requirement, is a straw man argument.

We do not assert any such notion, and in fact deny its very possibility! Works cannot save because God cannot be obligated by them! That is why salvation is always a gracious gift realized through faith, not by our works, whereby we can say we deserve it! Two undeniable truths are these: God is never obligated to us, and we are never deserving of his goodness.


Doug

So faith would be a gift of God then right?

 

[civic]

So faith would be a gift of God then right?

no-salvation would be and its because of, through faith which is mans responsibility and Gods condition for salvation.

 

[Presby02]

no-salvation would be

Was that a yes or a no?

 

[civic]

Was that a yes or a no?

you responded to fast I was still writing my response.

plus I answered the question first then provided the reason why its no, not yes.

 

[Presby02]

you responded to fast I was still writing my response.

plus I answered the question first then provided the reason why its no, not yes.

Is faith part of salvation? Through faith is not because of.

 

[civic]

Is faith part of salvation? Through faith is not because of.

no faith, no salvation and faith precedes salvation and faith is mans responsibility and condition on which anyone is saved. Unbelief keeps one from salvation and belief saves a person. Believe Jesus words below. Like old Nicodemus did not understand Jesus teaching on the new birth , you do not understand Jesus teaching on faith. Jesus emphasizes belief below 5 times in 5 verses.

John 3
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

conclusion: Jesus taught man must believe in Him to be saved. That believe is the condition to be saved. Never once did Jesus ever say, teach or imply that He gave anyone faith- the faith must come from man as the condition for a person to be saved. Unbelief in Him condemns. Faith in Him saves.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Presby02]

no faith, no salvation and faith precedes salvation and faith is mans responsibility and condition on which anyone is saved. Unbelief keeps one from salvation and belief saves a person. Believe Jesus words below. Like old Nicodemus did not understand Jesus teaching on the new birth , you do not understand Jesus teaching on faith. Jesus emphasizes belief below 5 times in 5 verses.

John 3
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

hope this helps !!!

Great. Irrelevant to the point. It's through or by faith, not because of faith.

 

[civic]

Great. Irrelevant to the point. It's through or by faith, not because of faith.

Wrong once again its because one believes in Christ they are saved- its the cause and condition for salvation/eternal life which is consistently taught by Jesus and the Apostles. Your skeptical questions do not change these facts.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Presby02]

Wrong once again its because one believes in Christ they are saved- its the cause and condition for salvation/eternal life which is consistently taught by Jesus and the Apostles. Your skeptical questions do not change these facts.

hope this helps !!!

Now it's belief? LOL Belief is something that is granted by God.

Next?

 

[civic]

Now it's belief? LOL Belief is something that is granted by God.

Next?

nope faith/belief are the same word lol- equivocating again ?

 

[Presby02]

nope faith/belief are the same word lol- equivocating again ?

So the devils had faith then. Gotcha

 

[civic]

So the devils had faith then. Gotcha

another strawman- we are talking about salvation and faith/belief.

 

[Presby02]

another strawman- we are talking about salvation and faith/belief.

You equated the two. They are synonymous terms right? If so then the devils are saved.

 

[civic]

You equated the two. They are synonymous terms right? If so then the devils are saved.

not at all there is salvific faith and there is general faith. you are the one equivocating, not me. You went off topic with the devil when all along we are discussing salvation and faith.

 

[TibiasDad]

So faith would be a gift of God then right?

It does not say that. Salvation is the gift of God. Salvation is given by grace through faith. That we are given the grace to believe is from God, but my will to choose to believe is mine to exercise.

There is a correlation of faith to the gift salvation but they are not both the same thing. Faith/trust is something we give to God, not something God gives to us!

Doug

 

[civic]

It does not say that. Salvation is the gift of God. Salvation is given by grace through faith. That we are given the grace to believe is from God, but my will to choose to believe is mine to exercise.

There is a correlation of faith to the gift salvation but they are not both the same thing. Faith/trust is something we give to God, not something God gives to us!

Doug

And all of Gods children said : AMEN !!!

 

[Presby02]

It does not say that. Salvation is the gift of God. Salvation is given by grace through faith. That we are given the grace to believe is from God, but my will to choose to believe is mine to exercise.

There is a correlation of faith to the gift salvation but they are not both the same thing. Faith/trust is something we give to God, not something God gives to us!

Doug

It's through faith though, not because of. So salvation is the gift by the means of faith.

Does scripture say faith is something we give to God?

 

[TibiasDad]

It's through faith though, not because of. So salvation is the gift by the means of faith.

Does scripture say faith is something we give to God?

It is because of grace, but we experience this through, by means of faith. Relationships are between two parties, both of which bring something of their own to the table of their own volition. God brings grace, hope, love, and his promise, to save those who believe in what he has brought to us. All he asks for is our trust in him.

And yes, scripture speaks of us giving/putting our faith/trust in/to God.
(2 Cor 3:4, Eph 1:12-13, 2 Tim 1:12, 1 Tim 4:10.) And faith is always spoken as being our possession. As Jesus said to the woman with the chronic bleeding, “your faith has made you whole”. No where does scripture say that God must give us faith, or that God has given us faith. But many times it says that we are responsible to believe.


Doug