Calvinistic Straw Man Argument

[The Rogue Tomato]

Calvin disagrees with you

For by grace are ye saved. This is an inference from the former statements. Having treated of election and of effectual calling, he arrives at this general conclusion, that they had obtained salvation by faith alone. First, he asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us.

John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentaries on the Epistles of Paul to the Galatians and Ephesians (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 227.

so does

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

Well, Harry J. Bipwitz's third cousin twice removed disagrees with you. And that's just as meaningful.

 

[TibiasDad]

Nwhere does scripture say faith is your part. Salvation in its totality is a gift. Ephesians 2:8,9. "It is not if yourselves"

Yet it condemns us for not doing it! Salvation is not of our own doing, it is not by works, not by our own actions or worthiness; it is all by God’s grace, God’s actions.

It is God’s protocol that “whoever believes” He will save, give eternal life. God says we must do something- believe, exercise faith, trust his promises. And He has determined that he will not save until we believe, trust, exercise faith! This does not mean we control God, for God has determined the rules. God chooses who to save and when to save and how to save. It cannot mean that our part in the process is meritorious, for it cannot be by grace if it is.

So we have God requiring man’s volitional response to his grace as a necessary condition to be fulfilled before God affects his salvation, but man’s involvement and actions are not causative or meritorious, nor do they obligate God in an of themselves. God is the author and finisher of salvation!


Doug

 

[TomL]

Well, Harry J. Bipwitz's third cousin twice removed disagrees with you. And that's just as meaningful.

I will allow the readers to observe the foolishness of your comment

Calvin disagrees with you

For by grace are ye saved. This is an inference from the former statements. Having treated of election and of effectual calling, he arrives at this general conclusion, that they had obtained salvation by faith alone. First, he asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us.

John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentaries on the Epistles of Paul to the Galatians and Ephesians (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 227.

so does

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

that you would compare the namesake of your theology and a noted Calvinist Greek scholar to some unknown

 

[TomL]

Nowhere does scripture say faith is your part. Faith is the means God's grace is applied. "It is not of tourselves".

Duh unless God is believing for you faith must be of yourself

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The question was

What must I do

The answer was

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved

not

You must do nothing

Calvin disagrees with you

For by grace are ye saved. This is an inference from the former statements. Having treated of election and of effectual calling, he arrives at this general conclusion, that they had obtained salvation by faith alone. First, he asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us.

John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentaries on the Epistles of Paul to the Galatians and Ephesians (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 227.

so does

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

 

[TomL]

No one said they are the same exact thing. You won another one against the strawman.

Don't obfuscate

You lumped them together under one heading

 

[Presby02]

Don't obfuscate

You lumped them together under one heading

Nope. My point was they go together like a hand of and a glove. Unaddressed as usual.

 

[TomL]

Nope. My point was they go together like a hand of and a glove. Unaddressed as usual.

False

your own word belie your claim

Presby02 said:
Nwhere does scripture say faith is your part. Salvation in its totality is a gift. Ephesians 2:8,9. "It is not if yourselves"

and further not only this verse

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

but this passage properly understood refutes your claim

John 6:27–35 (KJV 1900) — 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

 

[Rockson]

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

We can also see this man wasn't reproved and rebuked for asking this question. One gets the feel a Calvinist today would say,

"How dare you ask such an inappropriate question! Looks like you're one of those free willer folks who assert there's something THEY must do! Now look if you happen to see a change in your life tell me then I'll tell you what's already happened to you by God without you doing a thing. But until then stop asking what YOU must do to be saved! It's really in poor taste to ask such a thing!"

Paul didn't say any of that however. Must be then that there was indeed something that HE (the man) and his family genuinely needed to do.

 

[TomL]

We can also see this man wasn't reproved and rebuked for asking this question. One gets the feel a Calvinist today would say,

"How dare you ask such an inappropriate question! Looks like you're one of those free willer folks who assert there's something THEY must do! Now look if you happen to see a change in your life tell me then I'll tell you what's already happened to you by God without you doing a thing. But until then stop asking what YOU must do to be saved! It's really in poor taste to ask such a thing!"

Paul didn't say any of that however. Must be then that there was indeed something that HE (the man) and his family genuinely needed to do.

Calvinism is simply not consistent with the whole of scripture.

 

[civic]

Something rather interesting about the Heb 4 passage you're referring to.
If it is as Calvinists put forth that God has to put the faith in them and do the believing then God is angry with himself. See the below verses,

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, [a]not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:“So I swore in My wrath,‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”

So if God got into wrath and anger because they didn't do what he really wanted them to do. but in REAL terms God would to have to do it for them anyway and God knew that then God is mad at himself.

Excellent point

 

[civic]

Yet it condemns us for not doing it! Salvation is not of our own doing, it is not by works, not by our own actions or worthiness; it is all by God’s grace, God’s actions.

It is God’s protocol that “whoever believes” He will save, give eternal life. God says we must do something- believe, exercise faith, trust his promises. And He has determined that he will not save until we believe, trust, exercise faith! This does not mean we control God, for God has determined the rules. God chooses who to save and when to save and how to save. It cannot mean that our part in the process is meritorious, for it cannot be by grace if it is.

So we have God requiring man’s volitional response to his grace as a necessary condition to be fulfilled before God affects his salvation, but man’s involvement and actions are not causative or meritorious, nor do they obligate God in an of themselves. God is the author and finisher of salvation!


Doug

Amen keep preaching the true gospel brother

 

[TomL]

Something rather interesting about the Heb 4 passage you're referring to.
If it is as Calvinists put forth that God has to put the faith in them and do the believing then God is angry with himself. See the below verses,

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, [a]not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:“So I swore in My wrath,‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”

So if God got into wrath and anger because they didn't do what he really wanted them to do. but in REAL terms God would to have to do it for them anyway and God knew that then God is mad at himself.

Hebrews 4:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.


Of course none of that makes any sense in Calvinism as they were born that way and God determines all their responses

 

[TomL]

If God is Sovereign, and thus cannot be unwillingly subjected to any other power, then the argument that a human action can “earn” something from God is a logical impossibility and therefore, it is a logical fallacy to argue that Arminians make that claim.

God cannot be obligated by anything outside of himself, and thus “works” in the sense that our actions can obligate God to save us simply based on our completion of a requirement, is a straw man argument.

We do not assert any such notion, and in fact deny its very possibility! Works cannot save because God cannot be obligated by them! That is why salvation is always a gracious gift realized through faith, not by our works, whereby we can say we deserve it! Two undeniable truths are these: God is never obligated to us, and we are never deserving of his goodness.


Doug

And the bible is clear salvation is not earned or merited by faith

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,