Nope. Christ does not say you are the SOURCE of your faith or where it came from.
Calvinistic Straw Man Argument
- Thread starter TibiasDad
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civic
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In salvation , eternal life not one’s faith unless you agree you are nothing but a preprogrammed robot like Calvinists teach with their fatalism , determinism .
Amen! All of salvation is a gift.
Okay. That makes sense. Keep practicing
There not? So you can be saved without faith?
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Proper grammar refutes your argument. Salvation (you have been saved) is the point of contention. For by grace through faith you have salvation, salvation is the gift of God, so it is not by works, otherwise you would be able to boast.
Salvation is the implied noun, to which the pronoun “it” refers. This is made clear in 2:9, when works (mere human effort) are contrasted with “grace” as the effectual means of gaining salvation, as Paul teaches in Rom 6, if it is by works, then salvation/eternal life is an earned result, if by grace, it is a gift. (Rom 6:23)
Grace and faith are the instruments that are implemented to bring the gift salvation to fruition in our lives. Grace is God’s part, faith is ours. Faith is what we give to God, not what God gives to us.
Doug
Rockson
Well-known member
Yes. We see this as well in Eph 2:8 where we read,
"For by grace are ye saved through faith"
If faith were a part of grace there would be no need to say faith. It would have just read for by grace you are saved.
Sorry Greek grammarians refute you
For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.
Alford says: “It (the salvation) has been effected by grace and apprehended by faith.” The word “that” is touto (τουτο), “this,” a demonstrative pronoun in the neuter gender. The Greek word “faith” is feminine in gender and therefore touto (τουτο) could not refer to “faith.” It refers to the general idea of salvation in the immediate context. The translation reads, “and this not out from you as a source, of God (it is) the gift.” That is, salvation is a gift of God. It does not find its source in man. Furthermore, this salvation is not “out of a source of works.” This explains salvation by grace. It is not produced by man nor earned by him. It is a gift from God with no strings tied to it.
Kenneth S. Wuest, Wuest’s Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: For the English Reader (vol. 4; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1997), 69.
For by grace, etc. This may truly be called exceeding riches of grace, for ye are saved by grace. Grace has the article, the grace of God, in vv. 5, 7.
And that. Not faith, but the salvation.
Of God. Emphatic. Of God is it the gift
Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 3; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 376.
and greek exegetes
and this (not your faith, as Chrys. οὐδὲ ἡ πίστις, φησίν, ἐξ ὑμῶν: so Thdrt., al., Corn.-a-Iap., Beza, Est., Grot., Beng., all.;—this is precluded (not by the gender of τοῦτο, but) by the manifestly parallel clauses οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν and οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, of which the latter would be irrelevant as asserted of πίστις, and the reference of ver. 9 must therefore be changed:—but, as Calv., Calov., Rück., Harl., Olsh., Mey., De W., Stier, al., ‘your salvation;’ τὸ σεσωσμένοι εἶναι, as Ellic.) not of yourselves, God’s (emphatic) is the gift (not, as E. V. ‘it is the gift of God’ (θεοῦ δῶρον),—τὸ δῶρον, viz. of your salvation: so that the expression is pregnant—q. d., ‘but it is a gift, and that gift is God’s.’ There is no occasion, as Lachm., Harl., and De W., to parenthesize these words: they form a contrast to οὐκ ἐξ ὑμ., and a quasi-parallel clause to ἵνα μή τις καυχήσ. below): not of works (for ἐξ ἔργων, see on Rom. 3:4, and Gal. 2:16), that no man should boast (on the proposition implied, see on Rom. 4:2.
1 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 94.
Salvation is the main idea in the preceding statement, and it seems best to understand the καὶ τοῦτο as referring to that salvation in its entire compass, and not merely to the one element in it, its instrumental cause, appended by way of explanation
S.D.F. Salmond, “The Epistle of Paul to the Ephesians,” in The Expositor’s Greek Testament: Commentary (vol. 3; New York: George H. Doran Company, n.d.), 3289.
. The demon. pron. τοῦτο is the nom. subj. of an implied equative verb. There is much debate concerning the antecedent of τοῦτο because it is neut., but the previous two nouns are fem. Consequently most commentators favor the idea that the antecedent is the entire clause which includes both grace and faith (R 704; Wallace 334–35; Young 78; Arnold 139; Best 226; Bruce 289–90; Hoehner 343; Lincoln 112; O’Brien 175; see sim. uses of the pron. in 1:15; 3:1, 14).
Benjamin L. Merkle, Ephesians (ed. Andreas J. Köstenberger and Robert W. Yarbrough; Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic, 2016), 61.
You claim is simply false
Who said they were the exact same thing?
It does not say faith is your part. It says by grace THROUGH faith. Not because of.
Through, not because of. You are saved by grace, by the means of fath, it is not of yourselves.
SOLA DEO GLORIA
civic
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
This should open ones eyes so that they might REPENT of their ways and accept correction and heed the biblical truth and reject their present false beliefs.
One of the definitions of through is through? LOL
On account of what? Grace. Grace is applied by the means of faith.
Again, not because of faith but by the means of faith. "It is not if yourselves"
civic
Well-known member
One of the numerous definitions is through. There are many others.
Salvation is by faith. It’s that way everywhere in scripture so this verse cannot contradict the rest of the Bible like you think it’s doing . It’s double talk , inconsistent, biased, doctrinally incorrect , theologically incorrect, exegetically incorrect .
This is a perfect example of eisegesis reading one’s doctrine into a passage and isolating it from its context and the rest of scripture.
Let's do a little test and see if your contention holds up.
John 14:6. "no one comes to the Father except through me". Christ is the means whereby one comes to the Father.
How about Matthew 1:22. "by the Lord through the prophet" was it because of the prophet or was the prophet the means by which the Lord spoke?
Seems rather obvious
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