Are Arminians "works" salvationists?!

For someone who doesn't want to discuss James you sure are doing just that.....

Like I asked another user, make your argument from somewhere besides the book of James. I will listen and respond. I've argued this for many many years. I "cut my teeth" in establishing the canon with James. I made the arguments my own. That is why you've never heard what I'm posting here. I mattered enough to me to learn this myself.
Just one question.

How many Imperatives are there in the NT and are you obeying them?
Do you know what an Imperative is?
If yes-why not DOING what stands written?
Are we "faith-ing" our faith eis/into Messiah?

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.



Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

1Ti_2:10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—
with good works.

1Ti_5:10
and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work.

1Ti_5:25
So also good works are conspicuous, and even those that are not cannot remain hidden.

1Ti_6:18
They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

Tit_2:7 Show yourself in all respects to be a
model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,

Tit_2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are
zealous for good works.

Tit_3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those w
ho have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

Tit_3:14
And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful.
Heb_10:24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,-

How do you answer?
J.

 
Just one question.

How many Imperatives are there in the NT and are you obeying them?
Do you know what an Imperative is?
If yes-why not DOING what stands written?
Are we "faith-ing" our faith eis/into Messiah?

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.



Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

1Ti_2:10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—
with good works.

1Ti_5:10
and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work.

1Ti_5:25
So also good works are conspicuous, and even those that are not cannot remain hidden.

1Ti_6:18
They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

Tit_2:7 Show yourself in all respects to be a
model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,

Tit_2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are
zealous for good works.

Tit_3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those w
ho have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

Tit_3:14
And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful.
Heb_10:24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,-

How do you answer?
J.


So I'm here discuss the wondrous life and finished work of Jesus Christ and you want to ask me about what "imperative"?

I've done nothing but praise and glorify Jesus Christ. I don't care if you think I don't dress right nor if you think my wife haven't done enough to please you. I'm sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and my doctrine proves this. I seek no glory nor praise from you nor anyone else.
 
So I'm here discuss the wondrous life and finished work of Jesus Christ and you want to ask me about what "imperative"?

I've done nothing but praise and glorify Jesus Christ. I don't care if you think I don't dress right nor if you think my wife haven't done enough to please you. I'm sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and my doctrine proves this. I seek no glory nor praise from you nor anyone else.
You don't seem to understand me, nor the Scripture references I have given you.

Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Pursue shalom with kol Bnei Adam, and the kedushah without which no one will see Hashem.

Follow peace with all men,.... That are in a natural and domestic relation to one another, being of the same family; and that are in a civil and political one, being of the same nation, city, or society; and that are in a spiritual one, being members of the same church; or, if not, yet being saints, and though in some things different in judgment; yea, even peace is to be followed with enemies, as much as in us lies: and perhaps by "all men", the Gentiles may be more especially designed, whose peace the Hebrews thought they were not to seek, Deu_23:6 mistaking the sense of the text, by applying it to the Gentiles in general: to "follow peace", signifies an eager pursuit after it, in the use of proper means; exerting the utmost of a man's power to attain it, in all things possible: many things serve to enforce this upon the saints; this is most agreeable to all the three divine Persons; to God, who is the God of peace; to Christ, the Prince of peace; and to the Spirit, one of whose fruits is peace; and to the characters of the saints, who are sons of peace, and who are called to peace, and who make a profession of the Gospel of peace; and to the privileges they enjoy, being interested in the covenant of peace, partaking of spiritual peace now, and being entitled to eternal peace hereafter: and this agrees with the sayings and counsels of the ancient Jews. It was a saying of Hillell (r), who lived about the times of Christ;
"be thou one of the disciples of Aaron, who loved peace, ורודף שלום, "and followed peace".''
This is said of Aaron in the Talmud (s), that
"he loved peace, and followed peace, and made peace between a man and his neighbour, as is said, Mal_2:6.''
They recommend peace on many accounts, and say, great is peace, and among the rest, because it is one of the names of God (t):
and holiness: this being added to peace, shows that peace is no further to be followed than is consistent with holiness; and holiness here does not design any particular branch of holiness, as chastity of the body and mind, but the whole of holiness, inward and outward; and intends true holiness, in opposition to ceremonial holiness, which the Hebrews were fond of, and pursued after: it means even perfect holiness; for though holiness is not perfect in this life, yet it will be in heaven; and there is a perfection of it in Christ; and it is to be followed after, by going to Christ for more grace, and exercising faith upon him, as our sanctification; and by eager desires that the Spirit of God would sanctify us more and more, and enable us, by his grace and strength, to walk in the way of holiness, till we get safe to heaven:
without which no man shall see the Lord; or "God", as the Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read; that is, with the beatific vision in heaven: or the Lord Jesus Christ, "our Lord", as the Syriac version reads; even in this life, so as to have communion with him; and hereafter, so as to behold his glory, both intellectually and corporeally: to such a sight holiness is necessary; for God is holy, and Christ is holy, and so is heaven, and so are the angels, and the souls of men in it.
(r) Pirke Abot, c. 1. sect. 12. (s) T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 6. 2. & Gloss. in T. Bab. Yoma, fol. 71. 2. (t) Vajikra Rabba, sect. 9. fol. 153. 1, 2.


Shalom Achi.
J.
 
You don't seem to understand me, nor the Scripture references I have given you.

Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Pursue shalom with kol Bnei Adam, and the kedushah without which no one will see Hashem.

Follow peace with all men,.... That are in a natural and domestic relation to one another, being of the same family; and that are in a civil and political one, being of the same nation, city, or society; and that are in a spiritual one, being members of the same church; or, if not, yet being saints, and though in some things different in judgment; yea, even peace is to be followed with enemies, as much as in us lies: and perhaps by "all men", the Gentiles may be more especially designed, whose peace the Hebrews thought they were not to seek, Deu_23:6 mistaking the sense of the text, by applying it to the Gentiles in general: to "follow peace", signifies an eager pursuit after it, in the use of proper means; exerting the utmost of a man's power to attain it, in all things possible: many things serve to enforce this upon the saints; this is most agreeable to all the three divine Persons; to God, who is the God of peace; to Christ, the Prince of peace; and to the Spirit, one of whose fruits is peace; and to the characters of the saints, who are sons of peace, and who are called to peace, and who make a profession of the Gospel of peace; and to the privileges they enjoy, being interested in the covenant of peace, partaking of spiritual peace now, and being entitled to eternal peace hereafter: and this agrees with the sayings and counsels of the ancient Jews. It was a saying of Hillell (r), who lived about the times of Christ;
"be thou one of the disciples of Aaron, who loved peace, ורודף שלום, "and followed peace".''
This is said of Aaron in the Talmud (s), that
"he loved peace, and followed peace, and made peace between a man and his neighbour, as is said, Mal_2:6.''
They recommend peace on many accounts, and say, great is peace, and among the rest, because it is one of the names of God (t):
and holiness: this being added to peace, shows that peace is no further to be followed than is consistent with holiness; and holiness here does not design any particular branch of holiness, as chastity of the body and mind, but the whole of holiness, inward and outward; and intends true holiness, in opposition to ceremonial holiness, which the Hebrews were fond of, and pursued after: it means even perfect holiness; for though holiness is not perfect in this life, yet it will be in heaven; and there is a perfection of it in Christ; and it is to be followed after, by going to Christ for more grace, and exercising faith upon him, as our sanctification; and by eager desires that the Spirit of God would sanctify us more and more, and enable us, by his grace and strength, to walk in the way of holiness, till we get safe to heaven:
without which no man shall see the Lord; or "God", as the Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read; that is, with the beatific vision in heaven: or the Lord Jesus Christ, "our Lord", as the Syriac version reads; even in this life, so as to have communion with him; and hereafter, so as to behold his glory, both intellectually and corporeally: to such a sight holiness is necessary; for God is holy, and Christ is holy, and so is heaven, and so are the angels, and the souls of men in it.
(r) Pirke Abot, c. 1. sect. 12. (s) T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 6. 2. & Gloss. in T. Bab. Yoma, fol. 71. 2. (t) Vajikra Rabba, sect. 9. fol. 153. 1, 2.


Shalom Achi.
J.

Is that what Paul did when he demanded Jews treat Gentiles equally? Did those Jews quote your words to Paul? They sought to kill him and the only thing that stopped them was God.

Same with Jesus Christ, did Jesus come to bring peace or a sword?

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

I seek peace but the Truth of the Gospel makes me an enemy of this world. I'm sure you can please man though......

Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

You want me to live like YOU expect. Not going to do it. Do you see me going around here demanding others live like I expect? I fight for the Truth. Truth changes people. I make disciples of Christ not my own disciples.
 
Is that what Paul did when he demanded Jews treat Gentiles equally? Did those Jews quote your words to Paul? They sought to kill him and the only thing that stopped them was God.

Same with Jesus Christ, did Jesus come to bring peace or a sword?

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

I seek peace but the Truth of the Gospel makes me an enemy of this world. I'm sure you can please man though......

Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

You want me to live like YOU expect. Not going to do it. Do you see me going around here demanding others live like I expect? I fight for the Truth. Truth changes people. I make disciples of Christ not my own disciples.
No offense-you wouldn't last a week here where I am.
And you are misrepresenting me.
Have a good day.
J.
 
No offense-you wouldn't last a week here where I am.
And you are misrepresenting me.
Have a good day.
J.

I know. I can't do what you do......

You believe your actions in pleasing men.....please God. I posted the Scriptures that say you are wrong. Feel free to explain how I misrepresent you.
 
You presented a Arminian argument. I don't care what you "claim" about your position. Did you not read what I said about not having a cohesive theology. You can't claim much of anything. You're all over the place. You even deny the Full Divinity of Jesus Christ. I expect such people to be erratic. I can only deal with what you say "at the moment".

Hey, tell me "oh smart one"..... Did I call YOU an Arminian? Did I name YOU and then tell you where a Arminian?

No. I didn't. I said that I fear for Arminians that hold such position as you're presenting. This just another of the reason you're nothing but a novice trying to teach others when you need to learn yourself.
Yes, you labeled me a Arminian which meant you were engaging me under that.thought.
So what you thought rested on arminianism did not.
Stop with excuses and if u want to engage with my post. engage with the ideas not with the supposed aminianism
.
 
Yes, you labeled me a Arminian which meant you were engaging me under that.thought.
So what you thought rested on arminianism did not.
Stop with excuses and if u want to engage with my post. engage with the ideas not with the supposed aminianism
.

I did. Feel free to respond and stop whining. If you stop present Arminian argument, I can guarantee you I will not reference Arminianism.
 
I did. Feel free to respond and stop whining. If you stop present Arminian argument, I can guarantee you I will not reference Arminianism.
why are you denying you called me a arminian? you did it, nothing unclear about it. it is one reason it is so hard to have a reasonanable chhat with people
 
why are you denying you called me a arminian? you did it, nothing unclear about it. it is one reason it is so hard to have a reasonanable chhat with people
No this is what he actually said :

“ You presented a Arminian argument”

See the difference ?
 
No this is what he actually said :

“ You presented a Arminian argument”

See the difference ?
that was a later post
I know the diffrence between presenting an Arminian argument and being told for that he as known for years years I am arminian.
Honesty is low on the value list here. I hoped this forum would be better
 
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that was a later post
I know the diffrence between presenting an Arminian argument and being told for that he as known for years years I am arminian.
Honesty is low on the value list here. I hoped this forum would be better
So how is questioning the honesty of another any different than accusing them of being a liar ?

You did that with me the other day with a word to which I provided the definition to which I was using the word. Do you remember that exchange ?

I provided an excepted definition of the word equivocate. To which you said I was calling you a liar. I responded with a definition from the dictionary to which gave the meaning in the context I was using that word. The first definition of the word was ambiguous or vague. That was why I asked clarifying questions was to find out what you actually meant so I could understand what you were saying.

hope this helps !!!
 
Addressing the op, and all. not having read all the replies,
the one difference in the apostle Paul and James take on Faith and works is this. "BEFORE SALVATION, AND AFTER SALVATION". the apostle Paul, there is nothing, (as in Works, one can do in order to be saved), vs the apostle James, (one Work because they are saved.)

let 101G put it in an example for clarity. one do not show up on a Job Monday and work all week and expect to be paid Friday. no, it don't work that way. one must be HIRED, or here Saved first, in order to work to be paid on Friday.

the apostle Paul is saying there is no work you can do... (no matter how noble it is), sorry it will not save you. the apostle James on the other hand is saying, because you're saved/HIRED, one go to work, and God equips one to work by giving them GIFTS.

so works ... "BEFORE" Salvation vs Works "AFTER" Salvation is the KEY to understanding both doctrines of FAITH.

101G
 
A study on the word "works" in James and Paul:

One tricky little argument Calvinists use is that Armininians are "works salvationists." Yet if we study James 2, and believe this is in fact the inspired Bible, we see James specifically says faith alone does not save—in fact he makes a big point of it. Does this ruin the whole faith/works dichotomy that the Reformation set up for us? Only if we misunderstand the term works and start equivocating with it. If we make the word “works” both: anything we might theoretically do; and also something that never can be a part in saving us: Calvinistic double predestination necessarily logically follows. In fact, by giving them that one point, there is no way to avoid their conclusions.

But that point does not need to be granted them. There is, in fact, a different kind of works and we can prove James is not using works of the Law here. It's quite an easy harmonization to simply assert, not all works, are works of the law, and show in fact, a logical existence of something that could be defined as a “non-meritorious work,” that is, an action that produces a result without earning it (much like reaching out to receive a gift). James says a faith without works cannot save, explicitly and forthrightly:

What is the profit, my brethren, if faith, any one may speak of having, and works he may not have? is that faith able to save him? (Jam 2:14 YLT)


The implied answer here is clearly, “no.” In case we try to squeak around that somehow, he repeats the point with more force:

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. (Jam 2:24 NKJ)


This is a very clear statement. How are we to harmonize this with Paul’s declaration, “By the works of the law shall no flesh be justified”? Not, as many Lordship Salvationists do, by somehow twisting this into "works just necessarily follow without contributing." If something necessarily follows, it cannot logically be a part of the cause, it cannot be the "by" the thing, the instrumental means. That is, it should say "justified with works" instead of "by works," the cause resulting in another condition. Faith is clearly laid out by Paul as the instrumental cause of salvation, and James here adds that this faith needs works along with it. So how do we know the works James tells us here, are not works of the law? By considering the works James gives us as an example.

1) Abraham attempting to kill his son.
2) Rahab lying to save the spies.


James switches sharply from altruism, when he had plenty of OT examples of altruism to work from, and this is significant, for he is not saying the altruism justified apart from trusting the work of grace Christ wrought for us on the Cross. When James says, “I will show my faith by my works,” but in the same place says breaking one law breaks the entire law completely and constitutes you a law-breaker, we know he is talking of a kind of works that are not works of the law, because James just admitted everyone's works must necessarily break the law in some sense, because when they broke one law they broke them all, necessarily breaking it due to everyone's necessary moral imperfections. If James wanted to be clear that good works were what merits our justification, he would have used only positive works as an example of a salvific work, works that more clearly exhibited the moral and/or ceremonial laws that were at the heart of the Mosaic Law, but instead James references a "Royal Law" which he later describes as "The Law of Freedom," meaning it cannot be obligatory or demanding upon us.

Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? (Jam 2:22 NKJ)
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (Jam 2:26 NKJ)
Rahab the harlot also justified by works (Jam 2:25 NKJ)


We cannot now claim the Bible nowhere associates the idea or word of “works” with salvation or being made righteous, if we see this as salvific. There are several proofs James 2 is talking about a salvific justification: Firstly, the oft used "justified before men" is both not anywhere in the passage, and justifying before men is straight out condemned by Christ and would not be advocated (Luke 16:15). James is clearly addressing Paul, to clarify ways he felt Paul was being misunderstood, and Paul was using justification in a salvific sense used with faith. James uses legal language describing relation to Law, that which relates to man salvifically: transgress or fulfill; convicted and guilty of all or heirs of the kingdom; all final judgment language—declared righteous, judgment without mercy, was made perfect (compare Jesus saying “be perfect” and “it is perfected”). So in the end, the phrases “doing well” and “profiting” are thus to be seen in a context, not as that which profits materially above salvific faith, but that which actually leads to the profit of salvific faith, above demons—a non-dead faith.

We might begin thinking, “I’m concerned that I would be adding my own merit to faith by adding an action.” But this is just religious dogma that has been foisted constantly upon our thinking, it does not actually stem from the Bible or logic itself. It's versions of the much used arguments, "What makes you different then someone who rejects salvation?", or "If your choice determines you got saved, then you get all the credit." The Calvinist is forcing a false dichotomy here: either something is a meritorious work, or it is no work at all. Once you accept that, you are inevitably led down the trail to removing all volitional activity, and God alone decides who is saved because otherwise we contribute “works.” This is also why the same logic that if you can reject the atonement, that means you are necessarily attempting to merit the atonement, fails for defending eternal security—a free will decision is not necessarily attempting to merit something, it can be a choice made with a non-relation to merit altogether.

If we free ourselves from that logical error, we can show the non-sequitur of insisting that actions which produce results are necessarily meritorious in nature, and then have a salvation that is contingent upon our actions without it necessitating any merit (both before and after regeneration). Otherwise you will automatically feel like all works are bad and there is no such thing as a non-meritorious work, leading you right into the trap of unconditional salvation, for all free will decisions will be called works attempting to merit salvation, even the mere bare acceptance of faith in Christ. The Calvinist can call your version of faith a work because it’s contingent upon something you do. But he is simply leading you to a false dichotomy, that something has to be earning it if it produces a result.

The "obligation" to works then, is not an obligation to meet some percentage demand of perfection and partially fulfill the Law of God—it is a simple obligation to accept and allow a measure of God's grace to do its work within us, producing a changed nature and faith in the Cross-work, empowering us to exhibit that faith by what we do in some way, even in as simple a way as the thief next to Christ who exhibited the good work of faith-filled and humble words admitting his sin and asking Christ to remember him. These works are not pure and meriting and righteous—they are facilitating grace. If I do something, and then something results from what I do, that does not logically mean I merited the result. This is a weird non-sequitur Calvinists often throw out there and it's strange how it seems to convince people. If I receive a gift, that does not mean I merited the gift. That simply does not logically follow.

And thus free will decisions that allow grace to work in our lives bring us no credit or glory or merit towards our salvation. These are "non-meritorious works," and we can see their presence illustrated from the passage on works in James. Of course, people often use "faith alone" in a condensed imprecise way, to mean "not by any human merit," rather than "nothing you do matters salvifically." Thus, in a sense, they already allow a faith that produces an non-meriting action of some kind. It really should be more precisely stated as "salvation by non-merit," and people should stop using "salvation by faith alone" in this imprecise way. We still have to do certain things to show our faith. Non-meritorious works solve all the tensions and paradoxes concerning faith and works.

Are Arminians "works" salvationists?!

In a nutshell ... some are, and some aren't.
 
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