Dizerner
Well-known member
He sees it as an insult, lol.
Are Arminians "works" salvationists?!
- Thread starter Dizerner
- Start date
He sees it as an insult, lol.
civic
Well-known member
I didn't call him an arminian so I didn't know why I was included lol.
Rapture Bound
Active member
Just have to LOL on this one! ... the term Arminian is virtually synonymous with a curse word in the minds of many across the board on Christian Forum sites. I needed a good laugh this morning ... some say laughter is medicine for the soul. Personally, I'm a 4-point Arminian ... so technically you can't call me an Arminian ...correct? -lol
civic
Well-known member
Well as a former Calvinist for over 4 decades I witnessed first hand calvinists refer to arminians with many derogatory terms such as pelagian, semi pelagian, provisionists etc.....
look calvinists are all over the map as to what they are lol.
Rapture Bound
Active member
Yah, I'm very aware of that sad reality ... so I guess in one sense I shouldn't find it so funny ... just couldn't help myself, the entire scenario also strikes me in another sense as being ... ridiculous .....sigh.
civic
Well-known member
The problem is that most people on forums don't really know what Arminias believe. I remember when I was a calvinist and I would here calvinists misrepresent arminians. I would quote Jacob Arminius and set them straight. It would shut them up.
I have done the same with many calvinists when I would say what Calvin taught. I would quote him, spurgeon, bavinck, sproul etc...... And say here you go this is what Calvinism teaches.
Their evasive reply would be " I don't follow calvin, or spurgeon, sproul etc....... I follow Jesus.
My reply would be then don't call yourself a calvinists since that is what calvinism teaches. It was this daily merry go round with them. I would use Calvinist Theologians/Scholars as a hostile witness against them as calvinists all of the time. I would say don't shoot the messenger I'm just telling you what you claim to believe yet are denying. The problem for the vast majority of them is that I kew calvinism much better than they did since I taught it for decades and have a library full of their systematic threology books.
The I would get this when they were in a corner with no way out: " You were never a calvinist " ROFL and I knew when that one was coming as a last resort.
civic
Well-known member
In fact I will go out on a limb here by saying this:
If I were to quote some things arminius said/taught and not say it was him most people would think I was quoting a calvinist . Compatibilism looks much more like the teachins of Arminius, not calvin. I call Compatibilists calvinists who cannot swallow the calvin pill and compromise the doctines taught by calvin. When they are faced with the realities of the doctrines taught by calvin they become soft calvinists/compatibilists. The real calvinist is the hyper who doesn't back away from the doctrines and stands by them without making excuses for God.
If I were to quote some things arminius said/taught and not say it was him most people would think I was quoting a calvinist . Compatibilism looks much more like the teachins of Arminius, not calvin. I call Compatibilists calvinists who cannot swallow the calvin pill and compromise the doctines taught by calvin. When they are faced with the realities of the doctrines taught by calvin they become soft calvinists/compatibilists. The real calvinist is the hyper who doesn't back away from the doctrines and stands by them without making excuses for God.
Rapture Bound
Active member
Here's a couple interesting questions for you civic :
Did you consider yourself a 5- point Calvinist over those 4 decades?
Do you believe that you were actually saved the entire 4 decades that you were entrenched in the false doctrines that are intrinsic to "pure" or "consistent" Calvinism? There have been many ex-Calvinists who have freely testified that they were not actually saved for many years before the "light bulb" turned on in their understanding and truly received the free gift of salvation. Many have said that they had never received the assurance of their salvation [the knowing that their sins were actually forgiven] in those years prior to their genuine regeneration and lived in a constant state of fear and uncertainty about their eternal destiny.
civic
Well-known member
Yes full blown 5 pointer. Now I'm a zero pointer.
No I believe I was saved for sure. I was saved in 1980 before I knew what Calvinism/Armininism even was. Although after my conversion I went to a dutch reformed church. I also listened to John MacArthur for all those years as he was my favorite calvinist who was also premill lol. I don't thing tulip is salvific like some calvinists did. I always said modern day calvinists are much closer to Arminius teaching than they know. My study here is what led me out of calvinism. I'm still working on adding to the points and possibly turning it into a book at some point.
https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-nature-of-god-in-the-atonement.30/
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Rapture Bound
Active member
Thank you for sharing your testimony, I always find them fascinating.
You said, "I don't thing tulip is salvific like some calvinists did."
Well, it does not necessarily have to be the case, but apparently, sometimes it is.
Agreed, many [or perhaps most] "modern day calvinists are much closer to Arminius teaching than they know."
Wow - good job, go for it my friend! It sure looks like you already put countless hours in towards the completion of a book ... perhaps you'll be able to have it published before the Rapture takes place ... that Blessed event is surely right at the door!
civic
Well-known member
Yes it sure seems we are right at the door . That’s another problem I have with reformed theology - Israel and the church and eschatology. The same with their covenant theology.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes arminians promotes salvation by works, by their actions, doings, so they deny Salvation by Grace altogether. As fars as Paul and James are concerned, they speak the same thing, difference in emphasis, Pauls emphasis is mostly from the legal standpoint of having been legally Justified before God and Heaven solely on the basis of the Grace of God in and through the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ, but James is speaking about the Spiritual witness of the Christians life after conversion, and that moreson amongst True Believers who understand legal Justification by the blood of Christ.
Good works have no profit in the world of the reprobate unbelievers.
Good works have no profit in the world of the reprobate unbelievers.
mailmandan
Well-known member
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.
The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means to complete like love in 1 John 4:18, bring to maturity. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works/accounted as righteous part 2 after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
mailmandan
Well-known member
The Greek word for justified is "dikaioo": - Strong's #1344 - δικαιόω - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org
Thayer's
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
*Fits the context.
James 2:24 - You see that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by (an empty profession of faith/dead faith) that remains alone "barren of works." (James 2:14)
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
*Fits the context.
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. *Perfect Harmony*
Conclusion: Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26).
*Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)
It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Jesus Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*
Thayer's
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
*Fits the context.
James 2:24 - You see that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by (an empty profession of faith/dead faith) that remains alone "barren of works." (James 2:14)
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
*Fits the context.
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. *Perfect Harmony*
Conclusion: Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26).
*Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)
It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Jesus Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*
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