We agree. It's by or through faith. Not because of faith.
It is our or your faith once it is gifted to you.
Where does your saving faith come from?
Calvinistic Straw Man Argument
- Thread starter TibiasDad
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It is our or your faith once it is gifted to you.
Where does your saving faith come from?
TibiasDad
Well-known member
I’ve never said anything differently.
Nothing in scripture says that faith/trust is given to us.
This is a wrongheaded question, for it denies your earlier statement above that we are not saved because of faith. “Saving faith” implies that faith is the cause of salvation, not the human conduit through which God causes our rebirth.
The Bible speaks of men either placing their trust in themselves (their own righteousness or means) or in God; the issue is not the capacity to trust, but rather in what we trust.
Our capacity for trust is inherent to our being moral beings, and we learn to trust or distrust people or things through experience and the gaining of new information or insights.
The gospel and enlightenment of the Holy Spirit changes our understanding and perspective. We then are faced with a decision of believing what we have been told in the gospel. Are we in need of a savior? Do we believe that we are condemned because of our sin?
Will we trust what we have always believed or will we trust in God’s revelations about our real condition in relation to him? We have trust, but must choose in whom that trust will be placed.
Doug
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this [faith] is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
"this" points back to "faith" - it is the gift of God
Some say "this" points to salvation, but the grammar does not support that. The verse would have to read, 8 For it is by grace you have salvation, through faith—and this [salvation] is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
But that's not what the verse says.
That makes faith an instrumental cause of salvation
Faith as an Instrumental cause
John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).
That is not the word of an Arminian or a provisionist but of
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).
Similarly The Calvinist Theologian Berkouwer states
3. TO FAITH. Faith is the mediate or instrumental cause of sanctification as well as of justification. It does not merit sanctification any more than it does justification, but it unites us to Christ and keeps us in touch with Him as the Head of the new humanity, who is the source of the new life within us, and also of our progressive sanctification, through the operation of the Holy Spirit
L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 537.
There is not just a correlation between faith and justification, faith and regeneration , faith and salvation
There is a causal relationship even Calvinist theologians have affirmed
"Every good and perfect gift comes from above". Is faith included?
"In amm things, give thanks", including fairh?
"What do you have you did not recieve?" Everything, including life itself, but not MY faith?
It's through faith or by faith. Faith is a means to a end. God is the cause, grace and faith are the means. Ephesians 2:8,9
civic
Well-known member
Which does not come from God according to Jesus who taught the opposite of what you claim. Who should I believe Jesus or you?
hope this helps !!!
Did He?
civic
Well-known member
Notice the calvinist must use presuppositions in parenthesis below to support faith being a gift. Whereas Jesus never once taught that is true. He said " YOUR FAITH ".
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
hope this helps !!!
It is your faith once it is gifted to you. In every thing give thanks. Except for your faith? You did that right?
It's by and through faith, not because of. God is the cause of your salvation.
Yes he did
Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
John 6:27–30 (KJV 1900) — 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
there are multiple causes
even Calvin said so
The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).
Irrelevant to the question at hand. Where or what is the source of your faith?
You are the king of irrelevant proof texts, I have to give you that.
civic
Well-known member
Nothing from Jesus ever implies it’s given, granted or gifted. It’s why He said YOUR FAITH saved you .
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God is the ultimate cause. No God, no salvation. Praise be to Him
So where does your faith come from. It's something from nothing right?
civic
Well-known member
Man not God according to Jesus . 13 passages I posted declared it’s exactly what He said and taught.
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