Are Arminians "works" salvationists?!

[praise_yeshua]

your sarcasm aside, isaac is one of the strongest types of Christ in the Bible. Gen 22:16 the angel says of Abraham he had not withheld his son so in a sense Isaac was considered dead, but also alive. So he typed the death and life of Christ.

Sarcasm? You said goat. You made a mistake. Own it. Isaac didn't die. God provided His own Lamb. What is hard for you to understand about this? Sure Isaac was considered as good as dead in the eyes of Abraham. That was faith not works. Abraham didn't kill Isaac. We can't do God's work for Him. I realize you prefer to do just that. It is one of the reasons I am fearful for many Arminians such as yourself. You know so very little about God. It shows in most everything you say. From denying the Immaculate nature of Christ and His Divinity to demanding your own efforts complete your redemption.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Actually the English versions fail to bring out the full Greek in Hebrews 11:19:


View attachment 147


A better rendering would be:

"from which he also as a type was received back."


You notice this is the same word used for Jesus "parables," used as symbols and types of truths.

παραβολή noun: Parable, comparison, illustration.

Abraham saw the resurrection of Jesus Christ in His vision. Paul is referencing a vision Abraham had. Abraham was a prophet.

No. Type is not the best choice of words. It is a complicated construct and "sense" is a better choice of words. The writer is not pointing to a tangle event wherein Isaac died. It is a allusion. Sight into the purpose of God in Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yet you refuse to discuss Gen 22:16

No one would refuse to discuss anything with you because they fear your understanding of the Scriptures. You're a novice who doesn't know a ram from a goat..

 

[sethproton]

No one would refuse to discuss anything with you because they fear your understanding of the Scriptures. You're a novice who doesn't know a ram from a goat..

silly. why not attack others for their typos. Somewhat ignorant to attck me for a typo. I know it was a ram in Ehe English transtrlattion

 

[sethproton]

No one would refuse to discuss anything with you because they fear your understanding of the Scriptures. You're a novice who doesn't know a ram from a goat..

yet there is no discussion on Gen 22:16

 

[praise_yeshua]

silly. why not attack others for their tyops. Somewhat ignorant to attck me for a typo. I know it was a ram

How do you typo goat instead of ram? Everyone makes mistakes but your issue is deeper than simple typos.
You seek to teach those far more skilled than yourself.

 

[sethproton]

Sarcasm? You said goat. You made a mistake. Own it. Isaac didn't die. God provided His own Lamb. What is hard for you to understand about this? Sure Isaac was considered as good as dead in the eyes of Abraham. That was faith not works. Abraham didn't kill Isaac. We can't do God's work for Him. I realize you prefer to do just that. It is one of the reasons I am fearful for many Arminians such as yourself. You know so very little about God. It shows in most everything you say. From denying the Immaculate nature of Christ and His Divinity to demanding your own efforts complete your redemption.

Are you really paying attention? I am not Arminian.
So if your assumptions in conversing me are all based on that. how wrong must you be in your answers?
Probably you have misunderstood EVERYTHING I said by shrouding in imagined Arminian thought

 

[praise_yeshua]

yet there is no discussion on Gen 22:16

Discuss away. Abraham brought his son to the altar and God stopped Him. Abraham did not withhold Isaac. However, God stopped Abraham from working. God demanded Abraham have faith in His own Lamb.
Why are you arguing against God's demand of Abraham? Why don't you do what Abraham did and believe God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Are you really paying attention? I am not Arminian.
So if you assumption in conversing me are all based on that. how wrong must you be in your answers?

You don't have a cohesive theology. All you do is attack civic. That has been your MO for years. You don't know what you believe. It changes as the wind blows.

 

[sethproton]

You don't have a cohesive theology. All you do is attack civic. That has been your MO for years. You don't know what you believe. It changes as the wind blows.

since you thought I was arminian and were trying to categorize my posts into Aminian boxes, it would be safer to say you never read my posts for what they really said
Also interesting that you now have turned this into a personal attack, stick to the actual words. We will do better

 

[sethproton]

You don't have a cohesive theology. All you do is attack civic. That has been your MO for years. You don't know what you believe. It changes as the wind blows.

Forgetting that it was a sheep instead. is not contrary to the sacrificial system. Jews offered sheep and goats.Instead, You jumped on an error so you could ignore Heb 11:17 by faith Abraham offered up Isaac, which was the point that Just like God Abraham offered his son to death, and God gave him back

 

[praise_yeshua]

since you thought I was arminian and were trying to categorize my posts into Aminian boxes, it would be safer to say you never read my posts for what they really said
Also interesting that you now have turned this into a personal attack, stick to the actual words. We will do better

You presented a Arminian argument. I don't care what you "claim" about your position. Did you not read what I said about not having a cohesive theology. You can't claim much of anything. You're all over the place. You even deny the Full Divinity of Jesus Christ. I expect such people to be erratic. I can only deal with what you say "at the moment".

Hey, tell me "oh smart one"..... Did I call YOU an Arminian? Did I name YOU and then tell you where a Arminian?

No. I didn't. I said that I fear for Arminians that hold such position as you're presenting. This just another of the reason you're nothing but a novice trying to teach others when you need to learn yourself.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Forgetting that it was a sheep instead. is not contrary to the sacrificial system. Jews offered sheep and goats.Instead, You jumped on an error so you could ignore Heb 11:17 by faith Abraham offered up Isaac, which was the point that Just like God Abraham offered his son to death, and God gave him back

See what you little you know.... They were not used interchangeably. God had requirements for certain animals for certain sacrifices. Not that you would know. You obviously don't.

What is a work "seth" that is never literally accomplished by the individual? Might it not be faith?

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

You just have an issue recognizing what real faith is. Faith is belief in God's work. Which is what Abraham trusted. Isaac walked away from death because a Ram of the first year without spot or blemish was offered in His place. As good as Isaac was, he wasn't without spot of blemish. He wasn't "good enough". I'm sure you think your efforts are good enough to please God. You have faith MIXED with the law and your own works.

Abraham NEVER did this.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Johann]

See what you little you know.... They were not used interchangeably. God had requirements for certain animals for certain sacrifices. Not that you would know. You obviously don't.

What is a work "seth" that is never literally accomplished by the individual? Might it not be faith?

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

You just have an issue recognizing what real faith is. Faith is belief in God's work. Which is what Abraham trusted. Isaac walked away from death because a Ram of the first year without spot or blemish was offered in His place. As good as Isaac was, he wasn't without spot of blemish. He wasn't "good enough". I'm sure you think your efforts are good enough to please God. You have faith MIXED with the law and your own works.

Abraham NEVER did this.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Forgetting the "uninspired" James-as Abraham DID this-

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Jas 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Not being facetious here-James is not contradicting Paul.

Hermeneutics.
J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Forgetting the "uninspired" James-as Abraham DID this-

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Jas 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Not being facetious here-James is not contradicting Paul.

Hermeneutics.
J.

You asked me not to comment on James and then you post this? Which is it?

1. Abraham didn't offer Isaac. He had faith in God enough to offer Isaac. However, God stopped Abraham and demanded Abraham to trust HIS LAMB.
2. There is no action of works that combines with faith to save anyone.

If you really want to discuss the mistakes you're making, I will. We can start with the fact that James makes an appeal to devil's believing....

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

HUGE issue here. Devils don't have a "altar". We have Christ. They do not. We have a sacrifice to claim. They do not. This "James" makes many false comparison that have zero relativity to faith. He sees through his own eyes. Not the eyes of God.

Heb 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

 

[Johann]

You asked me not to comment on James and then you post this? Which is it?

1. Abraham didn't offer Isaac. He had faith in God enough to offer Isaac. However, God stopped Abraham and demanded Abraham to trust HIS LAMB.
2. There is no action of works that combines with faith to save anyone.

If you really want to discuss the mistakes you're making, I will. We can start with the fact that James makes an appeal to devil's believing....

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

HUGE issue here. Devils don't have a "altar". We have Christ. They do not. We have a sacrifice to claim. They do not. This "James" makes many false comparison that have zero relativity to faith. He sees through his own eyes. Not the eyes of God.

Heb 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

Poor hermeneutics.
The one making a huge mistake here is you brother.
But I'm not here to coerce or convince you.
You have a problem with the book of James-take it to the Lord.

An aside-I'm not here to pontificate or philosophize on Scriptures-it must be accompanied with the Imperatives as recorded IN Scripture.
J.

 

[Johann]

You asked me not to comment on James and then you post this? Which is it?

"Abraham"

He is used by both Paul (cf. Gen. 15 quoted in Rom. 4) and James (quotes Gen. 22) to prove their theological points, but each uses different events in his life. Paul speaks of his initial call and promises (i.e., the birth of Isaac), but James speaks of the consummation of his faith years later (i.e., the offering of Isaac).

"our father" This term seems to reflect Jewish Christian recipients (cf. Matt. 3:9; John 8:39). However, Paul uses this same concept for Gentiles (cf. Rom. 2:28-29; 4:11-12,16; Gal. 3:7; 6:16).

"justified by works"

This is the Greek verb dikaioô. The semantic field (possible meanings and connotations) this term has is interesting:
I. From Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (p. 196-197)
A. "Show justice" or "do justice to someone"
B. "Justify, vindicate, treat as just"
C. Paul uses the term for God's judgment
1. of men
a. "be acquitted"
b. "be pronounced and treated as righteous"
2. of God's activity - "make upright"
3. "to make free or pure" (ACTIVE)
or "to be made free or pure" (PASSIVE)
4. "God is proved to be right"
II. From Louw and Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, 2nd edition (vol. 2 p. 64).
A. "to put right with" (vol. 1, 34:46, p. 452)
B. "show to be right" (vol. 1, 86:16, p. 744)
C. "acquit" (vol. 1, 56:34, p. 557)
D. "set free" (vol. 1, 37:138, p. 489)
E. "obey righteous commands" (vol. 1, 36:22, p. 468)

When one compares these lexical usages it becomes clear how Paul could use this term in one way (specialized forensic sense of "made righteous") and James in another (shown to be righteous by one's godly living).

The term is fluid enough to allow both. But please remember it is a "both/and" situation, not an "either/or." Also be careful of a set theological definition of this term (or any term) which is then read into every usage of the word in Scripture. Words only have meaning in specific contexts!

"offered up Isaac"

The offering of Isaac (cf. Genesis 22) was not the grounds of Abraham's faith (cf. Genesis 12,15), but the result and expression. James is using the term "works" in a different way than Paul. James is speaking of the Christian's lifestyle faith (cf. 1 John), while Paul is speaking of a works-righteousness of the Jews (or Judaizers of Galatians) as a basis for being accepted by God (cf. Rom. 10:2-3).

2:22 "faith was working with his works" This is an Imperfect active indicative which denotes continual action in past time. There is a word play between "working with" (syn + ergon) and "works" (ergôn). The word "work" is used eleven times in James 2:14-26 and only three times in the rest of the book of James.

"faith was perfected"

This is an aorist passive indicative. Faith is initiated and perfected by God, but believers' volition and actions are also part of the equation. The term "perfected" means "mature," "equipped for the assigned task," "complete." The biblical covenant concept unites the sovereignty of God and the free will of humanity to form a contract or agreement which has both benefits and obligations, a gift and a requirement.

2:23 "the Scripture" This refers to Genesis 15:6, as do Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:6. James is saying that this verse was "fulfilled" by Abraham's later actions in his willingness to obey God and offer Isaac, the son of promise, as a sacrifice on Mt. Moriah (cf. Genesis 22).

 

[Johann]

And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “ Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”9 and he was called a friend of God.10 24 As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute justified by her actions when she welcomed the spies11 and sent them off on another route? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
V-PIM/P-3S (BSB Morphology)
Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular
Lemma: δικαιόω
Word: is justified
Greek: δικαιοῦται
Transliteration: dikaioutai
G1344 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G1344 δικαιόω dikaioo (d̮iy-kai-o'-ō) v.
1. to regard as righteous.
2. (judicially) to regard as innocent.
N-GNP (BSB Morphology)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Plural
Lemma: ἔργον
Word: his deeds
Greek: ἔργων
Transliteration: ergōn
G2041 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G2041 ἔργον ergon (er'-ğon) n.
1. work (as an effort or occupation).
2. (by implication) an act.

"justified by works" See note at James 2:21.
2:25 "Rahab the harlot" She was Judaism's ultimate proof of God's forgiveness and the power of repentance (i.e., a Canaanite prostitute, cf. Joshua 2). She also is an ancestor of Jesus (cf. Matt. 1:4). James uses two extremes, Abraham and Rahab, to prove his point.
2:26 Active love is to faith what the breath is to the human body. We could summarize James' description of lifeless faith as (1) demonic, James 2:19; (2) vain, James 2:20; and (3) dead, James 2:26.

 

[praise_yeshua]

"Abraham"

He is used by both Paul (cf. Gen. 15 quoted in Rom. 4) and James (quotes Gen. 22) to prove their theological points, but each uses different events in his life. Paul speaks of his initial call and promises (i.e., the birth of Isaac), but James speaks of the consummation of his faith years later (i.e., the offering of Isaac).

"our father" This term seems to reflect Jewish Christian recipients (cf. Matt. 3:9; John 8:39). However, Paul uses this same concept for Gentiles (cf. Rom. 2:28-29; 4:11-12,16; Gal. 3:7; 6:16).

"justified by works"

This is the Greek verb dikaioô. The semantic field (possible meanings and connotations) this term has is interesting:
I. From Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (p. 196-197)
A. "Show justice" or "do justice to someone"
B. "Justify, vindicate, treat as just"
C. Paul uses the term for God's judgment
1. of men
a. "be acquitted"
b. "be pronounced and treated as righteous"
2. of God's activity - "make upright"
3. "to make free or pure" (ACTIVE)
or "to be made free or pure" (PASSIVE)
4. "God is proved to be right"
II. From Louw and Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, 2nd edition (vol. 2 p. 64).
A. "to put right with" (vol. 1, 34:46, p. 452)
B. "show to be right" (vol. 1, 86:16, p. 744)
C. "acquit" (vol. 1, 56:34, p. 557)
D. "set free" (vol. 1, 37:138, p. 489)
E. "obey righteous commands" (vol. 1, 36:22, p. 468)

When one compares these lexical usages it becomes clear how Paul could use this term in one way (specialized forensic sense of "made righteous") and James in another (shown to be righteous by one's godly living).

The term is fluid enough to allow both. But please remember it is a "both/and" situation, not an "either/or." Also be careful of a set theological definition of this term (or any term) which is then read into every usage of the word in Scripture. Words only have meaning in specific contexts!

"offered up Isaac"

The offering of Isaac (cf. Genesis 22) was not the grounds of Abraham's faith (cf. Genesis 12,15), but the result and expression. James is using the term "works" in a different way than Paul. James is speaking of the Christian's lifestyle faith (cf. 1 John), while Paul is speaking of a works-righteousness of the Jews (or Judaizers of Galatians) as a basis for being accepted by God (cf. Rom. 10:2-3).

2:22 "faith was working with his works" This is an Imperfect active indicative which denotes continual action in past time. There is a word play between "working with" (syn + ergon) and "works" (ergôn). The word "work" is used eleven times in James 2:14-26 and only three times in the rest of the book of James.

"faith was perfected"

This is an aorist passive indicative. Faith is initiated and perfected by God, but believers' volition and actions are also part of the equation. The term "perfected" means "mature," "equipped for the assigned task," "complete." The biblical covenant concept unites the sovereignty of God and the free will of humanity to form a contract or agreement which has both benefits and obligations, a gift and a requirement.

2:23 "the Scripture" This refers to Genesis 15:6, as do Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:6. James is saying that this verse was "fulfilled" by Abraham's later actions in his willingness to obey God and offer Isaac, the son of promise, as a sacrifice on Mt. Moriah (cf. Genesis 22).

Willingness to obey isn't actually obedience. It is faith. Abraham, through faith, as good as killed his son. However, he didn't. God stopped him.

I don't understand why you all can't see this. My children often acted like this when they were teenagers. They were always saying things like "that is not what you said".... all the while.... they weren't actually listening to what I said.

That is what is happening here. There is an appeal direct by a certain historical figure to offering of Isaac as a means of "works" when it CAN'T be. Abraham didn't do it. He is as good as did it in his mind. In faith, he obeyed God, but in pratice, God did all the work Himself. There is no such thing as Abraham actually "working" or "literally" slaying his son.

However, guess what God did to His Son? HE LITERALLY OFFERED HIM UP FOR US ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

Abraham couldn't please God with a literally offering of Isaac. God pleased Himself.

God SPARED Isaac.... God didn't SPARE HIS SON...

 

[praise_yeshua]

And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “ Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”9 and he was called a friend of God.10 24 As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute justified by her actions when she welcomed the spies11 and sent them off on another route? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
V-PIM/P-3S (BSB Morphology)
Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular
Lemma: δικαιόω
Word: is justified
Greek: δικαιοῦται
Transliteration: dikaioutai
G1344 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G1344 δικαιόω dikaioo (d̮iy-kai-o'-ō) v.
1. to regard as righteous.
2. (judicially) to regard as innocent.
N-GNP (BSB Morphology)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Plural
Lemma: ἔργον
Word: his deeds
Greek: ἔργων
Transliteration: ergōn
G2041 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G2041 ἔργον ergon (er'-ğon) n.
1. work (as an effort or occupation).
2. (by implication) an act.

"justified by works" See note at James 2:21.
2:25 "Rahab the harlot" She was Judaism's ultimate proof of God's forgiveness and the power of repentance (i.e., a Canaanite prostitute, cf. Joshua 2). She also is an ancestor of Jesus (cf. Matt. 1:4). James uses two extremes, Abraham and Rahab, to prove his point.
2:26 Active love is to faith what the breath is to the human body. We could summarize James' description of lifeless faith as (1) demonic, James 2:19; (2) vain, James 2:20; and (3) dead, James 2:26.

For someone who doesn't want to discuss James you sure are doing just that.....

Like I asked another user, make your argument from somewhere besides the book of James. I will listen and respond. I've argued this for many many years. I "cut my teeth" in establishing the canon with James. I made the arguments my own. That is why you've never heard what I'm posting here. I mattered enough to me to learn this myself.