Calvinistic Straw Man Argument

[Rockson]

One of the definitions of through is through? LOL

On account of what? Grace. Grace is applied by the means of faith.

Again, not because of faith but by the means of faith. "It is not if yourselves"

So what? I actually believe what is not of yourself is the grace but what if we even allowed that it's talking about faith too. I can easily say to you that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God but one STILL must add actions of receiving to their faith. Remember believing is a verb. It's an action. Faith is only a noun.

eg. The preaching of the gospel provides the knowledge of God about what Christ came and did as your sacrifice. The gospel also tells us the second thing that God is of a good noble character and will keep his word IF WE ACT upon it. One still would have to ACT upon the faith and confidence God has provided if we'll choose to take it seriously.

ALSO THIS....you can have a key given to you that is the means of opening a door BUT you still must carry out an action to use it. If you don't it doesn't matter if everything is given to you grace or faith being a part of grace....all these ways you say things DON'T MATTER! The question is are you going to use it or utilize it?

 

[Presby02]

So what? I actually believe what is not of yourself is the grace but what if we even allowed that it's talking about faith too. I can easily say to you that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God but one STILL must add actions of receiving to their faith. Remember believing is a verb. It's an action. Faith is only a noun.

eg. The preaching of the gospel provides the knowledge of God about what Christ came and did as your sacrifice. The gospel also tells us the second thing that God is of a good noble character and will keep his word IF WE ACT upon it. One still would have to ACT upon the faith and confidence God has provided if we'll choose to take it seriously.

ALSO THIS....you can have a key given to you that is the means of opening a door BUT you still must carry out an action to use it. If you don't it doesn't matter if everything is given to you grace or faith being a part of grace....all these ways you say things DON'T MATTER! The question is are you going to use it or utilize it?

Okay. Whatever this is supposed to mean.

 

[Rockson]

Let's do a little test and see if your contention holds up.

John 14:6. "no one comes to the Father except through me". Christ is the means whereby one comes to the Father.

OK. Let's say there's a great banquet going to take place. It's told all the only way into the hall is through the one front door. Except you go through this you won't enter. Doesn't mean the door comes out and grabs you and pushes you in.

 

[Presby02]

OK. Let's say there's a great banquet going to take place. It's told all the only way into the hall is through the one front door. Except you go through this you won't enter. Doesn't mean the door comes out and grabs you and pushes you in.

It is the means to get to the other side. Way to address those text though. Do analogesis instead.

 

[Rockson]

Okay. Whatever this is supposed to mean.

Well you said one good thing there and I'll give you credit for that.

OKAY I'm confident other readers will say the same.

 

[Rockson]

It is the means to get to the other side. Way to address those text though. Do analogesis instead.

You haven't read Jesus did the same as well? Many, many, many times.

 

[Presby02]

You haven't read Jesus did the same as well? Many, many, many times.

Ya, I quoted one such example. You know, the ones you ignored?

 

[Presby02]

Well you said one good thing there and I'll give you credit for that.

OKAY I'm confident other readers will say the same.

They will. What a bunch of irrelevant gaboley gook.

 

[civic]

You haven't read Jesus did the same as well? Many, many, many times.

Yep

 

[TomL]

This should open ones eyes so that they might REPENT of their ways and accept correction and heed the biblical truth and reject their present false beliefs.

It was rediculous he claimed grammar supports him

 

[TomL]

Who said they were the exact same thing?

not even close

a clear category error

 

[TibiasDad]

It does not say faith is your part. It says by grace THROUGH faith. Not because of.

Does God have faith? Where does scripture say that God puts faith in us? Haven’t you read in scripture that it is our responsibility to have faith, which is shorthand for exercising faith or placing our trust in God.

Hebrews teaches us that “unbelief”, a lack of faith, on the part of Israel is what separated them from God, the God who had chosen them to be his own, yet they chose to not trust in God. Humans did not trust, did not exercise their faith.

The question is never whether we have faith, the question is with whom we entrust it! In a relationship two parties bring something to the table, God brings grace, man is required by God to bring his faith; a faith that has, up to this point, been given to something other than God. We have never lack the capacity to trust/have faith in something/someone, grace offers us the opportunity to trust in God as opposed to something other than God.

Again, scripture never says that we must be given faith, but it constantly says that we must trust/believe/exercise faith.


Doug

 

[Rockson]

Does God have faith? Where does scripture say that God puts faith in us? Haven’t you read in scripture that it is our responsibility to have faith, which is shorthand for exercising faith or placing our trust in God.

Hebrews teaches us that “unbelief”, a lack of faith, on the part of Israel is what separated them from God, the God who had chosen them to be his own, yet they chose to not trust in God. Humans did not trust, did not exercise their faith.

Something rather interesting about the Heb 4 passage you're referring to.
If it is as Calvinists put forth that God has to put the faith in them and do the believing then God is angry with himself. See the below verses,

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, [a]not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:“So I swore in My wrath,‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”

So if God got into wrath and anger because they didn't do what he really wanted them to do. but in REAL terms God would to have to do it for them anyway and God knew that then God is mad at himself.

 

[Presby02]

Nwhere does scripture say faith is your part. Salvation in its totality is a gift. Ephesians 2:8,9. "It is not if yourselves"

 

[Presby02]

not even close

a clear category error

Nope. No faith, no salvation.

 

[TomL]

Nwhere does scripture say faith is your part. Salvation in its totality is a gift. Ephesians 2:8,9. "It is not if yourselves"

Salvation and faith are still not the same thing

and faith is of yourself as God does not believe for you

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 6:29 (KJV 1900) — 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[TomL]

Nope. No faith, no salvation.

That does not make faith salvation

 

[TomL]

Nwhere does scripture say faith is your part. Salvation in its totality is a gift. Ephesians 2:8,9. "It is not if yourselves"

Calvin disagrees with you

For by grace are ye saved. This is an inference from the former statements. Having treated of election and of effectual calling, he arrives at this general conclusion, that they had obtained salvation by faith alone. First, he asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us.

John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentaries on the Epistles of Paul to the Galatians and Ephesians (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 227.

so does

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

 

[Presby02]

Salvation and faith are still not the same thing

and faith is of yourself as God does not believe for you

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 6:29 (KJV 1900) — 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

No one said they are the same exact thing. You won another one against the strawman.

 

[Presby02]

Calvin disagrees with you

For by grace are ye saved. This is an inference from the former statements. Having treated of election and of effectual calling, he arrives at this general conclusion, that they had obtained salvation by faith alone. First, he asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us.

John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentaries on the Epistles of Paul to the Galatians and Ephesians (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 227.

so does

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

Nowhere does scripture say faith is your part. Faith is the means God's grace is applied. "It is not of tourselves".