We choose. We chose. You choose. You chose. You will choose.
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
makesends
Well-known member
Even reasoning and experience tells us that saving faith is not the work of the person. It is done IN us by the Spirit of God. How many years I spent worrying that I had fooled myself, and my repentance and submission was only a joke, as evidenced by my disobedience! If you think that of yourself you can have the integrity, the knowledge and seriousness of what is undertaken in such a decision, nevermind the urgency, desire and love for God that it takes, the constancy of determination to see it through, the
Of course faith comes first, and that, by the Spirit of God, who gives new life.
This is where I depart from some Calvinist and Reformed believers (not all). I believe the Spirit of God was around from the beginning. The reference is to the Spirit —the same Spirit that they were to receive on Pentecost (Acts 2), not as indwelling, but as what is elsewhere referred to as "filled with".
Knowing that the unregenerated heart cannot please God (Romans 8:8), the conclusion is obvious: If one cannot please God, and by faith one CAN please God, the faith is not produced by the one who cannot please God. It is the gift of God, lest one claim it is of their own doing.
civic
Well-known member
Like Jesus said several times below- its your faith not the faith He gave you. Its why synergism is biblical. God initiates and draws and man responds.
Here is how some would rewrite Jesus words below and add to scripture things that were never said nor implied.
Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Below I will remove any doubts or confusion you might have in thinking tulip is true and it’s not. Calvinism (tulip) is not true. It all stands or falls upon each letter the tulip represents.( Boettner and Spurgeon affirm is stands or falls together ) And one of the most famous Calvinists of all Spurgeon went on record saying that tulip is the gospel. That is blatantly false and as Paul says in Galatians 1 that it is another gospel and adding to the gospel itself these man-made doctrines of grace. (tulip) substituting them for the simple gospel. One doesn't need to become a theologian to become saved. A simple faith in Christ as the lamb of God who takes away our sins and confessing He is your Lord/Savior for your sins is all that is necessary to believe in the gospel-death, burial, resurrection, appearances as Paul tells us in 1 Cor 15.
So let me spell this out one more time with Scripture, the Bible. The Spirit comes after faith, confession, repentance.
Anyone granted eyes to see knows the order below and scripture is consistent in both testaments. The Spirit comes after believe, receive, confess, repent etc.......
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel. Receive, Believe, Birth
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
In Acts below the Spirit comes after repentance
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
In Galatians the Spirit comes after hearing, believing, receiving
Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture.
1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Rom 8:30
9- Sanctification- Rom 8
10- Glorification Rom 8:30
conclusion : the Spirit comes after faith , belief, receiving, repentance, confession, not before.
So let me spell this out one more time with Scripture, the Bible. The Spirit comes after faith, confession, repentance.
Anyone granted eyes to see knows the order below and scripture is consistent in both testaments. The Spirit comes after believe, receive, confess, repent etc.......
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel. Receive, Believe, Birth
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
In Acts below the Spirit comes after repentance
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
In Galatians the Spirit comes after hearing, believing, receiving
Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture.
1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Rom 8:30
9- Sanctification- Rom 8
10- Glorification Rom 8:30
conclusion : the Spirit comes after faith , belief, receiving, repentance, confession, not before.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Faith wouldn't exist without God, as such, it is the gift of God. However, this fact does not preclude the very real fact we can use what is common to all of humanity. Man exercises faith in many different things he does not understand. Things he trust. Faith is often misplaced and misdirected. You can never make the argument that faith doesn't exist among sinners that have never been regenerated. In "fact", Christ died while we were yet sinners. A jester. A gift. A gift often rejected. This doesn't mean it wasn't given. You argument is nonsensical.
This life is made up of factS..... Some prefer to focus on one fact at time without ever trying to fit them all together.
You can fit a round peg in a square hole but you're going to leave some gaps. Calvinism often ignores the gaps they leave in their theology while asking others not to pay attention.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
You are making the classic error, "God would not command people to do something if they are not able to do it."
civic
Well-known member
Do you have a verse saying we cannot obey Gods commands ?
It says just the opposite
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Read Deuteronomy. God lays out what they must do and tells them to choose to be obedient. Then God tells them ahead of time that they aren't going to do it and God will curse and scatter them. Then, God tells them that, in the future, God will bring them back into the promised land and, "6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live."
So, it's obvious it takes an act of God to "circumcise their hearts so that they may love him and live." That's the only way they can "choose" and live.
civic
Well-known member
The rich young ruler obeyed the commandments and he was unregenerate.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Yeah, that's what he SAID. Jesus humored him and set before him a task he would find impossible, to sell all his possessions and give to the poor. And what was the conclusion of the matter?
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
A perfect parallel with what I said about Deuteronomy.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You're treating the entire group as being the same. They are not. God destroyed those in the wilderness that did not believe. However, a very large multitude came out of the wilderness.
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You're leaving out a very important part of this conversation.
Luk 18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
Luk 18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Luk 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Why?
civic
Well-known member
No one was regenerated in the OT yet men were called righteous like Noah, but Abraham and Job. Upright men who obeyed God.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
FYI....
Luke 18:27 But he said, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”
Rockson
Well-known member
Simple. If you're saying God does the repenting and believing for man then you're also without saying it that he leaves all others out of the blessing. You would say that's God glorifying himself.
To bring glory to oneself is thought of as a positive thing, that brings such attention to him ;How can that be a positive thing when it would diminish the character of God as one who shows favoritism for no reason. It takes away the praise that one would give the character of God. Thus the meaning of my below statement,
The ironic thing is you should maybe consider that you're taking away the glory and the praise one would give to the character of God who offers his LOVE and salvation to all. Such is what Calvinistic thinking does.
I was not mocking. I was demonstrating that God does not repent or believe for a person. And even you recognize how bad it is in application, and yet that is the logical end of thinking man does not participate in his salvation.
Someone has to repent and believe. Is it God or man? It matters not if one is regenerate, for it is man who must do it to be saved. Does this mean you are sharing in God’s glory? RT must think so.
One receives salvation by repenting and believing. Both are actions of the human will.
You are quoting your doctrine, not biblical truths in application.
The Spirit of God does not reside in the unregenerate. He resides in those who have repented and received our Lord by faith.
Perhaps you are commingling the convicting work of the Holy Spirit with regeneration. He most certainly convicts one after hearing the Gospel, but this is not residing, nor is it regeneration.
God Bless
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makesends
Well-known member
I'm not sure why you think it should be necessary that it be explained to be a gift from God in any of those references. It is indeed our faith, done within us. But my faith is worthless, unless it is God who gave it to me. We (you and I), I think, have discussed one or two verse showing that it is not generated by us, as such; but, regardless, one need not know that it is not by their will that their faith is real, in order for it to be real, by which I mean, actual, salvific.
makesends
Well-known member
Not a good argument. Mere compliance is not submission, and not by faith.
makesends
Well-known member
I disagree. Whether or not one is regenerated before faith or after faith, salvation has always been the same way —by Grace through Faith, and that, not of yourselves. And it has always been necessary for the same reasons, and their sins have always been forgiven for the same reasons. There is only one body, one savior and one gospel.
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makesends
Well-known member
But I'm not saying God does the repenting and believing for man. So it's a bogus argument.
Who says God does it for no reason? Not me, not Calvinism, not Reformed Theology, not @The Rogue Tomato
It's a bogus notion, and therefore, your argument is void.
