praise_yeshua
Well-known member
To add more context......
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Word is nigh.... EVEN IN THY MOUTH. IN THY HEART....
We choose. We chose. You choose. You chose. You will choose.
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
To add more context......
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Word is nigh.... EVEN IN THY MOUTH. IN THY HEART....
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
And yet most people cannot "hear" (internalize, understand) it, even so. Why? Because God has not given them ears to hear.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I have never seen this claim established from the Scriptures.
There are many reasons that simple faith does not form in the unregenerate.
As someone else mentioned previously, the rich young ruler was told what he needed to do to subdue his own pride and embrace faith. He knew what he needed to do. It wasn't an issue relative to knowledge. He preferred what he had to what was offered. That happens with many. That is why Jesus said this concerning the poor.....
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
Luk_4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor;
Luk 14:12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
Luk 14:13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
The love of this world is strong. It is not of the Father. That is why God has designed this to bring us all to poverty. We brought nothing into this life.....we take nothing with us.
Have you ever noticed how just living will make you destitute? We get weaker and weaker every day of our lives. Such puts us in a place to actually LISTEN.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
What Scripture are you reading? The TBV?
Deut 29:4 But to this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
John 6:35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them. [opened their ears to the truth]”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Your assertion is conjecture. Anyone can understand the gospel when presented. It is do they believe it.
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called (invited and accepted, saved), both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. (1Co 1:21-24)
God Bless
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You're ignoring most of what I said. Why?
Duet 29 is more than just verse #4. Why are you ignoring the context? Moses is speaking to ALL the sons of Israel. All of them. Including Joshua
Deu 29:2 And Moses called all the sons of Israel and said to them, Ye have seen all things that the Lord did in the land of Egypt before you to Pharaoh and his servants, and all his land;
If what you say is true, then there no faithful among Israel at this time. Which is ridiculous. Again. You are conflating the context of verse #4 with salvation. It is obviously not. Many of these people were faithful.
Will you retract your claim concerning Deut 29:4?
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Because it's just more "A loving God would never..." nonsense, and has nothing to do with "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ".
L.A.M.B.
Active member
If there is no freewill, how did A/E choose to believe the serpent rather than what God said ?
If there is no freewill how did 1/3 of God's angels side then with Lucifer in the war to take over the throne ?
If there is no freewill then how can anyone ever be saved ?
If God having preselected some to righteousness and others to damnation, making him a puppet master and us chess pieces, in the game of war with satan to continue to take the throne; how is this holy & righteous ? Is this the kind of God one serves?
Not me, the whosoevers that will believe and come indicates WE HAVE A CHOICE IN THE MATTER OF OUR SALVATION.
Furthermore the idea that God forces some to believe bc he has chosen them is faulty understanding of his grace!
If there is no freewill how did 1/3 of God's angels side then with Lucifer in the war to take over the throne ?
If there is no freewill then how can anyone ever be saved ?
If God having preselected some to righteousness and others to damnation, making him a puppet master and us chess pieces, in the game of war with satan to continue to take the throne; how is this holy & righteous ? Is this the kind of God one serves?
Not me, the whosoevers that will believe and come indicates WE HAVE A CHOICE IN THE MATTER OF OUR SALVATION.
Furthermore the idea that God forces some to believe bc he has chosen them is faulty understanding of his grace!
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
No. God isn't always loving. However, it impossible to claim that God hates those that He has never loved.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
If that's what "whosoever" means, then I'm glad the verse isn't "whosoever is 6 feet tall" because I can't change my height by my own free will.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Correct. "Whosoever" is indeterminate.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Whosoever believes simply means "those who believe". It's not a free will invitation. And it doesn't say anything about why some believe and others don't.
civic
Well-known member
ditto
civic
Well-known member
makesends
Well-known member
I know. What's your point?
I'm trying to get across to you the logical sequence—what causes what...
makesends
Well-known member
YES! And guess who that whosoever is!
makesends
Well-known member
makesends said:
Of course it is man who repents and believes! This is
John 1 says, "not by the will of man". Both repentance and believing are the gift of God.
Are the dead in their sins dead or not? Ephesians 2:1-4 The living dead is what we were. But God made us alive (vs 5)
Nobody is saying the Spirit of God resides in the unregenerate. Where do you get that? He takes up residence —that IS the regeneration.
I'm not talking about convicting, though he certainly does that. In fact, the person is not consulted at all, when he is regenerated, nor is he asked permission.
Of course it is man who repents and believes! This is
John 1 says, "not by the will of man". Both repentance and believing are the gift of God.
Are the dead in their sins dead or not? Ephesians 2:1-4 The living dead is what we were. But God made us alive (vs 5)
Nobody is saying the Spirit of God resides in the unregenerate. Where do you get that? He takes up residence —that IS the regeneration.
I'm not talking about convicting, though he certainly does that. In fact, the person is not consulted at all, when he is regenerated, nor is he asked permission.
Obviously knew something WHEN? Before regeneration, I knew nothing but conscience. I didn't know how to repent, only how to be sad. I didn't know how to believe.
civic
Well-known member
All, everyone who wills to come let him come drink freely just like in John 3:16. Jesus is addressing anyone and everyone with the invitation just like in parable of the wedding feast.
Rev 22
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes,that they may have the right to the tree of lifeand may go through the gates into the city.15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a]this testimony for the churches. I am the Rootand the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life
Rowan
Active member
Passages Containing the Word “Whosoever”
Note that “the word whosoever is used at least 110 times in the New Testament, and always with the unrestricted meaning.” This being the case, here are some selected as examples:
John 3:16: “… That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Acts 2:21: “… Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Acts 10:43: “… Through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
Romans 10:13: “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Revelation 22:17: “… And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”
Mark 8:34–38
34. And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
36. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37. Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
38. Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Note that “the word whosoever is used at least 110 times in the New Testament, and always with the unrestricted meaning.” This being the case, here are some selected as examples:
John 3:16: “… That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Acts 2:21: “… Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Acts 10:43: “… Through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
Romans 10:13: “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Revelation 22:17: “… And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”
Mark 8:34–38
34. And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
36. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37. Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
38. Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
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makesends
Well-known member
I guess I shouldn't be surprised you don't see that they do. Take them all together (and there are a lot more), and they certainly do.
What the verse actually says, without the paraphrase's added words, is: "So faith is from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."
And to you, since you assume self-determination, you think that verse logically implies that hearing then produces an act of the will of the hearer, no? So ok, do your will. But HOW did the hearing produce the willed decision? How does a person even have ears to hear? And how does the verse imply that doing your will to believe, produces belief? The belief comes by the Spirit of God, and, yes, upon hearing the word of Christ.
Bad reasoning: Coincidence is not time sequence, and even time sequence doesn't necessarily designate causal sequence. The verse doesn't say what causes what—it only says, "when", and, "and". The unbeliever is by definition made a believer when he is given the faith.
