Tensions in Calvin’s Idea of Predestination

[Presby02]

Well, He was around before I was... and therefore I cannot be charged with that heresy.

How would he know what they were?

Seriously?

How would he know who to predestine to Salvation?

He knows all. Do you not understand that.

He knows the beginning to the end.

I cannot believe you are such a fatalist.

What does " You bind Gods foreknowledge to your choices." even mean?

So you for one minute believe that God had no clue that Eve, then Adam
would screw up humanity?

Or do you believe that God actually made them that way so humanity would suffer?

Or is it not just possible God knew what they were capable of and the likely hood
that they could mess up before he breathed life into Adam?

He never limited the angels. They were not robots worshipping him they had their will
to worship or even be as "Helel" was (look it up)

Certainly He knew how Michael's and Gabriel's would be... else they would not have
been arch angels ... and He also knew "Helel's ways... and that he would be evil always.

Same as for you, and me.

And also Jeffrey Dahmer.... and Karla Faye Tucker's inclinations... so the one has been doomed and
the other was given what it took to make a total conversion.

Why do you not see this?

He is involved with salvation on both sides of the predestined coin... One allows us the opportunity
to over come ourselves, the other chooses to ignore ... period.

I agree, God is omniscient and knows all there is to logically lnow.

In your theology you free will choice is an illusion and your free choices are bound by Gds foreknowledge. I can prove it with one simple question. At the moment you make a choice, can you choose other than how God knows your going to choose? If you answer yes, you deny Gods omniscient. If you answer no your the fatalist.

 

[Presby02]

A sovereign God a do whatever he wants to with his creation at any given point of time. But that doesn’t mean that that is the rule, but rather the exception.

It could also mean that he simply foresees what the choice will be.

Both ideas avoid meticulous predetermination!

Doug

Its not the rule? Who says? Where do you get that from?

Except it says planned and determined, brought about by His hand. Or was Gods plan bound by mans choices?

 

[Presby02]

Which comes first, God’s choice that I must choose X, or my choice to choose X. Which choice makes it necessary?

If the answer is God’s, then I have no freedom of choice. God has determined everything, including my desires which govern my choices.

Doug

Temporally or eternally?

Not only your desires, as your creator, but He is also sovereign over the circumstances you find yourself in. He us soverign over all contingencies. Events play exactly as He has planned them to.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I agree, God is omniscient and knows all there is to logically lnow.

In your theology you free will choice is an illusion and your free choices are bound by Gds foreknowledge. I can prove it with one simple question. At the moment you make a choice, can you choose other than how God knows your going to choose? If you answer yes, you deny Gods omniscient. If you answer no your the fatalist.

I am not the fatalist here.

can you choose other than how God knows your going to choose?

Of course... _______!

You can change your mind but with foreknowledge He would know you were going to.

Repeating:

God's foreknowledge means He knows in advance who will choose to have faith in Him, but it does not force individuals to make those choices. Instead, it allows for the belief that God guides and influences people towards faith while still respecting their free will.

Why you find this difficult to understand is beyond me.

You know... though I guess you don't... I lived for 5 decades with an overly controlling dad who somehow knew and tried to control my every move and if I varied in my every move disapprovingly by him it was countered by a negative.

It is so wonderful that my Heavenly Father loves me enough to allow me to have free will at last and through all of the times I turned his hair... if he has any... grey,. he guided and chided ( yes, and I knew it) and showed me the way without once making me feel as if he were turning from me if I did not get it.... with the patience I can only wish I had.
I love my Heavenly Father beyond measure. And Lord Jesus , and The Holy Spirit.

We have a wonderful relationship. Non-coerced but with freedom.

I never once felt God had determined my eternal fate before my birth.

I never once felt God's using such as preaching, personal experiences, and the work of the Holy Spirit, to lead to my conversion. That if God predestined me for salvation my faith was a responding to His calling and grace.

Oh, certainly I experienced the preaching, personal experiences, and the work of the Holy Spirit which made me want more and then I wanted to be born again, and all that goes with that.... But then He knew that I would .

Perhaps he predestines those who are so reluctant they need an extra push?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Temporally or eternally?

Not only your desires, as your creator, but He is also sovereign over the circumstances you find yourself in. He us soverign over all contingencies. Events play exactly as He has planned them to.

Sovereignty doesn't require such nonsense. There is only one will of God. God isn't doubled minded. You are.

Sovergnity includes allowing things to happen that God doesn't like. God gifts power to humanity to cause their own outcomes within a limiting framework that fades away right before man's eyes. You're experiencing such yourself. No flesh shall glory in His Presence. That includes you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am not the fatalist here.

can you choose other than how God knows your going to choose?

Of course... _______!

You can change your mind but with foreknowledge He would know you were going to.

Repeating:

God's foreknowledge means He knows in advance who will choose to have faith in Him, but it does not force individuals to make those choices. Instead, it allows for the belief that God guides and influences people towards faith while still respecting their free will.

Why you find this difficult to understand is beyond me.

You know... though I guess you don't... I lived for 5 decades with an overly controlling dad who somehow knew and tried to control my every move and if I varied in my every move disapprovingly by him it was countered by a negative.

It is so wonderful that my Heavenly Father loves me enough to allow me to have free will at last and through all of the times I turned his hair... if he has any... grey,. he guided and chided ( yes, and I knew it) and showed me the way without once making me feel as if he were turning from me if I did not get it.... with the patience I can only wish I had.
I love my Heavenly Father beyond measure. And Lord Jesus , and The Holy Spirit.

We have a wonderful relationship. Non-coerced but with freedom.

I never once felt God had determined my eternal fate before my birth.

I never once felt God's using such as preaching, personal experiences, and the work of the Holy Spirit, to lead to my conversion. That if God predestined me for salvation my faith was a responding to His calling and grace.

Oh, certainly I experienced the preaching, personal experiences, and the work of the Holy Spirit which made me want more and then I wanted to be born again, and all that goes with that.... But then He knew that I would .

Perhaps he predestines those who are so reluctant they need an extra push

Meticulous determinism is fatalism. The idea that there is a temporal difference even in the knowledge of God is destroyed by the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. Mind can not be separated from the will.

 

[civic]

Meticulous determinism is fatalism. The idea that there is a temporal difference even in the knowledge of God is destroyed by the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. Mind can not be separated from the will.

Ditto Calvinism is determinism which is fatalism