We choose. We chose. You choose. You chose. You will choose.

[makesends]

I was not mocking. I was demonstrating that God does not repent or believe for a person. And even you recognize how bad it is in application, and yet that is the logical end of thinking man does not participate in his salvation.

Someone has to repent and believe. Is it God or man? It matters not if one is regenerate, for it is man who must do it to be saved. Does this mean you are sharing in God’s glory? RT must think so.

One receives salvation by repenting and believing. Both are actions of the human will.

Of course it is man who repents and believes! This is
John 1 says, "not by the will of man". Both repentance and believing are the gift of God.

You are quoting your doctrine, not biblical truths in application.

The Spirit of God does not reside in the unregenerate. He resides in those who have repented and received our Lord by faith.

Perhaps you are commingling the convicting work of the Holy Spirit with regeneration. He most certainly convicts one after hearing the Gospel, but this is not residing, nor is it regeneration.

Are the dead in their sins dead or not? Ephesians 2:1-4 The living dead is what we were. But God made us alive (vs 5)

Nobody is saying the Spirit of God resides in the unregenerate. Where do you get that? He takes up residence —that IS the regeneration.

I'm not talking about convicting, though he certainly does that. In fact, the person is not consulted at all, when he is regenerated, nor is he asked permission.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I disagree. Whether or not one is regenerated before faith or after faith, salvation has always been the same way —by Grace through Faith, and that, not of yourselves. And it has always been necessary for the same reasons, and their sins have always been forgiven for the same reasons. There is only one body, one savior and one gospel.

After faith is not Calvinism.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Of course it is man who repents and believes! This is
John 1 says, "not by the will of man". Both repentance and believing are the gift of God.

Are the dead in their sins dead or not? Ephesians 2:1-4 The living dead is what we were. But God made us alive (vs 5)

Nobody is saying the Spirit of God resides in the unregenerate. Where do you get that? He takes up residence —that IS the regeneration.

I'm not talking about convicting, though he certainly does that. In fact, the person is not consulted at all, when he is regenerated, nor is he asked permission.

The dead know nothing. You obviously knew something. How?

 

[Joe]

Ephesians 2:1-10; John 3:8 with 3:3; 2 Corinthians 4:4; John 6:63; 1 Corinthians 12:3, 12:9; 1 John 5:1; Romans 8:5-8

None of these verses state or imply that an unbeliever is given the new life of the Spirit. One believes first and then is indwelt by our Lord's Spirit.

Where do you think faith (belief) comes from? How does a person produce saving faith?

As already stated from the Romans 10:17, "faith comes from hearing the message, and the message comes through preaching Christ."

You're using a red herring by asking how one produces faith when you know the biblical answer that faith comes from hearing the message of Jesus Christ preached.

Ephesians 1:13 validates the Spirit of God is not given to an unbeliever, and it also gives us the sequential order of salvation and the new life of the Spirit. "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit" (Eph 1:13)

So one hears the word of truth, the gospel message, believes in our Lord Jesus Christ, and then is sealed with the Spirit of God.

God Bless

 

[Joe]

Of course it is man who repents and believes! This is
John 1 says, "not by the will of man". Both repentance and believing are the gift of God.

The statement that RT made was, "If you want to take credit for repenting and believing of your own (fallen) free will, be my guest. God will not share the glory."

My reply to you when you got involved is, "Someone has to repent and believe. Is it God or man? It matters not if one is regenerate, for it is man who must do it to be saved. Does this mean you are sharing in God’s glory? RT must think so."

So, let me ask you since you've agreed that man must be the one who willfully repents and believes. Does this mean you are sharing in God's glory? Why or why not?

John 1 is about establishing the fact that salvation is not outside of receiving and believing in Jesus Christ, and to those who do receive and believe, He gives them the right to become children of God. Salvation is not outside of this belief such as by depending upon your bloodline, or by being adopted into a Jewish family, or by a person who thinks that God will save them outside of believing in Jesus Christ. "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." 1:12-13)

I don't argue that repentance and faith are gifts from God. I argue against the misuse of thinking man's will is not involved to make use of them.

Are the dead in their sins dead or not? Ephesians 2:1-4 The living dead is what we were. But God made us alive (vs 5)

I don't disagree that we all were dead in sins and "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved".

That has zero to do with being regenerated first and then repenting and believing. The Apostle Paul is exclaiming the wonderful grace of God that saves us by His grace instead of by our works (vs 8-9).

Nobody is saying the Spirit of God resides in the unregenerate. Where do you get that? He takes up residence —that IS the regeneration.

Here you stated, "The Spirit of God does not repent and believe for the man. The Spirit of God takes up residence, at God's own timing, in the creature to whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world to give mercy. This transforms the person from death to life, so it is called being "born from above", or 'born again'; in theological terms, 'regeneration'."

To me, it sounds like you were saying the "Spirit of God takes up residence" in an unrepentant unbeliever and transforms them into a repentant believer. This of course we know is not biblical regeneration.

Biblical regeneration is receiving and believing in Jesus Christ and calling out to Him to be saved. Then one is given the right to become a child of God, receiving the Spirit of adoption and new life united-one with God (the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit).

'm not talking about convicting, though he certainly does that. In fact, the person is not consulted at all, when he is regenerated, nor is he asked permission.

Like I preach and teach about being born anew from God, you know when someone is living in your house and others know it too. If you have the Spirit of God living within you, you know it and others do too. The inward change of life is so dramatic externally that others take notice.

The gospel message offers a new glorious life personally united with God that is pleasing to both Him and the hearer. And for me like all others, this only happened after I repented and believed in Jesus Christ and called out to be saved. And this is the pattern that is biblical. One hears and then believes the gospel message of God's forgiveness and reconciliation for sin, everlasting righteousness, and new and powerful life of God's Spirit living in and with you forever, with death having no hold.

Being born anew-given a new life of the Spirit of God living inside-is a part of the gospel message-one must be born again. I fully expected Him to take up residence in me and transform my life in some fashion. I just didn't realize the depth of that glorious transformation.

God Bless

 

[Rockson]

But I'm not saying God does the repenting and believing for man. So it's a bogus argument.

If you're believing in irresistible grace then you're believing God does the repenting for man. Irresistible means you can't help it or change it. If it wasn't that it wouldn't be irresistible.

Who says God does it for no reason? Not me, not Calvinism, not Reformed Theology, not @The Rogue Tomato

If all are under sin then all are under sin. There is therefore no reason God would show favoritism from one to another. So you believe then God shows favoritism when the scriptures say that he doesn't. Rom 2:11

 

[praise_yeshua]

If you're believing in irresistible grace then you're believing God does the repenting for man. Irresistible means you can't help it or change it. If it wasn't that it wouldn't be irresistible.

If all are under sin then all are under sin. There is therefore no reason God would show favoritism from one to another. So you believe then God shows favoritism when the scriptures say that he doesn't. Rom 2:11

Absolutely correct.

 

[Rockson]

Here you stated, "The Spirit of God does not repent and believe for the man. The Spirit of God takes up residence, at God's own timing, in the creature to whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world to give mercy. This transforms the person from death to life, so it is called being "born from above", or 'born again'; in theological terms, 'regeneration'."

To me, it sounds like you were saying the "Spirit of God takes up residence" in an unrepentant unbeliever and transforms them into a repentant believer. This of course we know is not biblical regeneration.

And as far as I'm concerned that's exactly what they're saying. They're wanting to make it seem that they're not for they're wanting to make it seem like they do believe man has to repent and believe. But in real terms it's all done for them. Not scriptural.

 

[civic]

The dead know nothing. You obviously knew something. How?

total inability is an oxymoron otherwise no one could ever understand knowledge , reason, logic etc..... And we know Paul and the other Apostles would persuade them ( unregenerate Jews and Gentiles )towards Christ, the gospel, the resurrection etc....... Truths from scripture, spiritual truth they claim is impossible for any unbeliever to know , understand or comprehend. The calvinists doctrine the teaching of original sin, T.D. and Total Inability, doctrine of being dead are all wrong.

 

[civic]

The statement that RT made was, "If you want to take credit for repenting and believing of your own (fallen) free will, be my guest. God will not share the glory."

My reply to you when you got involved is, "Someone has to repent and believe. Is it God or man? It matters not if one is regenerate, for it is man who must do it to be saved. Does this mean you are sharing in God’s glory? RT must think so."

So, let me ask you since you've agreed that man must be the one who willfully repents and believes. Does this mean you are sharing in God's glory? Why or why not?

John 1 is about establishing the fact that salvation is not outside of receiving and believing in Jesus Christ, and to those who do receive and believe, He gives them the right to become children of God. Salvation is not outside of this belief such as by depending upon your bloodline, or by being adopted into a Jewish family, or by a person who thinks that God will save them outside of believing in Jesus Christ. "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." 1:12-13)

I don't argue that repentance and faith are gifts from God. I argue against the misuse of thinking man's will is not involved to make use of them.


I don't disagree that we all were dead in sins and "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved".

That has zero to do with being regenerated first and then repenting and believing. The Apostle Paul is exclaiming the wonderful grace of God that saves us by His grace instead of by our works (vs 8-9).


Here you stated, "The Spirit of God does not repent and believe for the man. The Spirit of God takes up residence, at God's own timing, in the creature to whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world to give mercy. This transforms the person from death to life, so it is called being "born from above", or 'born again'; in theological terms, 'regeneration'."

To me, it sounds like you were saying the "Spirit of God takes up residence" in an unrepentant unbeliever and transforms them into a repentant believer. This of course we know is not biblical regeneration.

Biblical regeneration is receiving and believing in Jesus Christ and calling out to Him to be saved. Then one is given the right to become a child of God, receiving the Spirit of adoption and new life united-one with God (the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit).


Like I preach and teach about being born anew from God, you know when someone is living in your house and others know it too. If you have the Spirit of God living within you, you know it and others do too. The inward change of life is so dramatic externally that others take notice.

The gospel message offers a new glorious life personally united with God that is pleasing to both Him and the hearer. And for me like all others, this only happened after I repented and believed in Jesus Christ and called out to be saved. And this is the pattern that is biblical. One hears and then believes the gospel message of God's forgiveness and reconciliation for sin, everlasting righteousness, and new and powerful life of God's Spirit living in and with you forever, with death having no hold.

Being born anew-given a new life of the Spirit of God living inside-is a part of the gospel message-one must be born again. I fully expected Him to take up residence in me and transform my life in some fashion. I just didn't realize the depth of that glorious transformation.

God Bless

Amen.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

As already stated from the Romans 10:17, "faith comes from hearing the message, and the message comes through preaching Christ."

No, the verse is, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (or Christ in some translations)." Hearing itself comes by the word of Christ. Without the word of Christ, there is no hearing. You can preach the Gospel until you're blue in the face but if the listener has not been granted hearing, he can't respond.

It is an outrageous non-sequitur to say that if Calvinism is true, then it is God who is doing the repenting and believing.

 

[civic]

No, the verse is, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (or Christ in some translations)." Hearing itself comes by the word of Christ. Without the word of Christ, there is no hearing. You can preach the Gospel until you're blue in the face but if the listener has not been granted hearing, he can't respond.

It is an outrageous non-sequitur to say that if Calvinism is true, then it is God who is doing the repenting and believing.

Notice what comes first in scripture - the order of how one becomes saved.

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ,regeneration, new life, born again etc....
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John below the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.


Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life, regeneration, born again

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

No, the verse is, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (or Christ in some translations)." Hearing itself comes by the word of Christ. Without the word of Christ, there is no hearing. You can preach the Gospel until you're blue in the face but if the listener has not been granted hearing, he can't respond.

It is an outrageous non-sequitur to say that if Calvinism is true, then it is God who is doing the repenting and believing.

This claim is dramatically different than the claim you made earlier concerning the Gospel

The NET2 edition is the most accurate here. Though they do promote the minority reading "of Christ" and have a rather convoluted explaination as to why. I will share their recent updates concenring the manuscript evidence below.

"But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”, "Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ."

It is very clear that Paul is saying that faith comes from "what is heard".

Why are you trying to change this to equal "God"? We can agree that everything good comes from God. It is the Providence of God that establishes faith in our existence. This fact does not = "God gave me faith and not the Gospel".

Most mss (א A D Ψ 33 1175 1241 1505 1881 2464 M sy) have θεοῦ (theou) here rather than Χριστοῦ (Christou; found in א* B C D* 6 81 629 1506 1739 lat co). Although the Nestle-Aland apparatus includes P for this reading, more recent photographs by CSNTM reveal it to be κυρίου (“Lord”), a singular reading. External evidence strongly favors the reading “Christ” here. Internal evidence is also on its side, for the expression ῥῆμα Χριστοῦ (rhēma Christou) occurs nowhere else in the NT; thus scribes would be prone to change it to a known expression.
tn The genitive could be understood as either subjective (“Christ does the speaking”) or objective (“Christ is spoken about”), but the latter is more likely here.

Notice how even the NET2 (Calvinist) states that "Christ is spoken about".....

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

This claim is dramatically different than the claim you made earlier concerning the Gospel

The NET2 edition is the most accurate here. Though they do promote the minority reading "of Christ" and have a rather convoluted explaination as to why. I will share their recent updates concenring the manuscript evidence below.

"But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”, "Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ."

The Greek is literally "So faith from hearing and hearing through word of Christ".

 

[civic]

This claim is dramatically different than the claim you made earlier concerning the Gospel

The NET2 edition is the most accurate here. Though they do promote the minority reading "of Christ" and have a rather convoluted explaination as to why. I will share their recent updates concenring the manuscript evidence below.

"But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”, "Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ."

It is very clear that Paul is saying that faith comes from "what is heard".

Why are you trying to change this to equal "God"? We can agree that everything good comes from God. It is the Providence of God that establishes faith in our existence. This fact does not = "God gave me faith and not the Gospel".



Notice how even the NET2 (Calvinist) states that "Christ is spoken about".....

Yes Wallace is a reformed Calvinist - good point

 

[praise_yeshua]

The Greek is literally "So faith from hearing and hearing through word of Christ".

No. It is not. There are manuscript issues and the references I provided deal with the evidence. There are two choices to be made in how address the use of ῥῆμα Χριστοῦ. Subjective or Objective. Even the Calvinist NET2 edition commentary admits that the proper choice would be "objective".

This fits perfectly with what is stated in Paul's summary concerning his message of the Gospel.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

I had this discuss with a trained Calvinist from DTS in the early 2000s. He basically admitted that the text is clear in Romans 1:16-17 and sets the "table" for all subsequent teaching in Paul's letter to the Christians at Rome.

You can not ripe the context of the writing from the discussion. Paul is establishing his ministry. Establishing his Gospel that he often referenced as the means of the new birth.

1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

When all is considered, manuscript evidence, grammar, and context from the ministry of Paul and the extant Scriptures taken from his letters to others.... It is the Gospel itself that enlightens. Whether men chooses to reject it or not to his own damnation, it is the Gospel that enlightens. The Gospel even damns those who reject Jesus Christ.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes Wallace is a reformed Calvinist - good point

He is an extraordinary honest man. I read much of his writings when I was much younger. He is really the reason I decided not to attend DTS. Not that I didn't like him. I did. I just didn't want to get involved with the Calvinism there.

I can honestly say that I believe he has struggled with "Reformed Doctrine" in his life. I've read he talk about how pray has affected him personally relative to his beliefs. As much as Calvinists often pretend they're settled in their position..... this is not often very true.

 

[civic]

He is an extraordinary honest man. I read much of his writings when I was much younger. He is really the reason I decided not to attend DTS. Not that I didn't like him. I did. I just didn't want to get involved with the Calvinism there.

I can honestly say that I believe he has struggled with "Reformed Doctrine" in his life. I've read he talk about how pray has affected him personally relative to his beliefs. As much as Calvinists often pretend they're settled in their position..... this is not often very true.

Calvin himself was torn within from the doctrines he espoused

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

No. It is not. There are manuscript issues and the references I provided deal with the evidence. There are two choices to be made in how address the use of ῥῆμα Χριστοῦ. Subjective or Objective. Even the Calvinist NET2 edition commentary admits that the proper choice would be "objective".

Yes, it is. Find a Greek/English interlinear and look it up for yourself.

And look at the immediate context: "18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.”

So they heard the words with their ears, but they had no ears for "hearing" (understanding). And who gives us ears to hear? God.

Deut 29:4 "Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day."

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, it is. Find a Greek/English interlinear and look it up for yourself.

And look at the immediate context: "18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.”

So they heard the words with their ears, but they had no ears for "hearing" (understanding). And who gives us ears to hear? God.

Deut 29:4 "Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day."

You don't think I've looked it up myself? What I posted is correct. If you have something to dispute about the objective view then please do.

You are correct. They did not understand the gift of God because it must be experienced to fully know. However, the Gospel message is enough to produce faith.

You are conflating various degrees of "understanding" as one. There are several degrees of understanding. Which is why you read a believer ask God to "help his unbelief"....

Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Faith has measureS. There is great faith and then there is the "smallest" faith necessary to bring salvation. Faith is not salvation. It is the begins of salvation. We struggle with faith our entire lives. Our faith grows throughout our life with Christ. The deep things of God are only given to us through the Spirit of God. However, it does not take the "deep things of God" to be saved. If it did, then none of would be saved.