praise_yeshua
Active Member
Hide from the wise....
Tensions in Calvin’s Idea of Predestination
- Thread starter FreeInChrist
- Start date
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Good!I can agree with that, probably.
But that begs a question..... I had 2 but I don't remember the 2nd one
#1. Your belief in the Trinity?
#2. Oh, Your belief on what exactly predestination is because
you said this " I would insist we first start with how Christ was predestined."
A very provocative statement.
If you reply but If I dont reply to you until tomorrow, I will. I wont run away.
1. @civic and I are largely compatible with one another on our doctrinal defense of the Trinity. We both start with the purity of our Christology. My thoughts always begin with God's choice for and in humanity through Jesus Christ.
2. Predestination is the intent of God in the work of Christ. I'll go ahead and say this, God doesn't always get what He wants. He doesn't need to. He is without external need. The only time there is an absolute relative to predetermination to be found in my theology, it is in the Immaculate and Impeccable work of God in Jesus Christ. God choice in forming Adam was for Adam to be just like Jesus Christ. That happened long before this world was ever formed. Calvinism destroys this truth by rewriting this narrative with some imaginary choice in themselves. It is why I asked one of the resident Calvinists recently if God first chose them and then established the means of their election with Jesus Christ. It is all about them in such nonsense. Always is..
In knowing the mind of God relative to intent in this world, we must first start with that choice. That choice was made in Eternity and it is written and accomplished in the Immutable character of the Holy Trinity. God choice in Himself. Jesus Christ first in all things.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
No it does not.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Good!
1. @civic and I are largely compatible with one another on our doctrinal defense of the Trinity. We both start with the purity of our Christology. My thoughts always begin with God's choice for and in humanity through Jesus Christ.
2. Predestination is the intent of God in the work of Christ
Yes, in this I agree fully.
OK... listen... I will be back later but I was just called to run a little interference int eh debate thread we viewer can post in...
by Red Baker who is a friend????? of mine..... for years.... who is such a solid Predestined person and we have fought and fought
for years over his beliefs.... He wont claim calvin, he often says he is a high preterist.... sigh.... anyway I cant do that and continue to reply to you
So once I have done that I will be back
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I am back.
I cannot say I agree with this, exactly. God is all knowing and all sufficient. He CAN do and have whatever he wants...He can speak it and it will be.... but I see it as by design that there are things within the human will.. and also angelic free will ( "Heylel, aka Lucifer aka Satan") that He will not interfere with.
Billy Graham... you may hate him but he was very wise in many things and he
The late evangelist Billy Graham discussed how the Almighty God, who created the whole world, can do anything except interfere with a person’s will.
Billy Graham left timeless messages about the nature of God. In one of his sermon clips, he shared about how God will never intervene in a person’s will, including their decision to follow God and be saved.
Billy first referred to Revelations 3:20 to prove his point. It says, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.”
I actually held that belief before I ever read he taught that.
I believe God has honored that from the day he breathed life into Adam and continues this day, even after the crucifixion of the
of the second and last Adam, Jesus Christ.
I cannot put the actual term Predestination on this but I can say I believe it to be by design. Or Pre-planned.
Except, to me there are specific people who were pre-selected and pre-determined to do the job God had for them.
Prophets, Job (especially) , the Disciples, including Judas , the additional apostles, and others that had a specific role to play down through history. These I would say were predestined because even though God is all knowing, I believe there are some things he would not leave to chance.
Maranatha,
Amen, amen
Good!
1. @civic and I are largely compatible with one another on our doctrinal defense of the Trinity. We both start with the purity of our Christology. My thoughts always begin with God's choice for and in humanity through Jesus Christ.
2. Predestination is the intent of God in the work of Christ. I'll go ahead and say this, God doesn't always get what He wants.
I cannot say I agree with this, exactly. God is all knowing and all sufficient. He CAN do and have whatever he wants...He can speak it and it will be.... but I see it as by design that there are things within the human will.. and also angelic free will ( "Heylel, aka Lucifer aka Satan") that He will not interfere with.
Billy Graham... you may hate him but he was very wise in many things and he
The late evangelist Billy Graham discussed how the Almighty God, who created the whole world, can do anything except interfere with a person’s will.
Billy Graham
Billy Graham Says, 'God Never Interferes With Your Will' | Christian Learning & News
Billy Graham discussed how the Almighty God, who created the whole world, can do anything except interfere with a person's will.
www.christianlearning.com
Billy Graham left timeless messages about the nature of God. In one of his sermon clips, he shared about how God will never intervene in a person’s will, including their decision to follow God and be saved.
Billy Graham Says, 'God Never Interferes With Your Will' | Christian Learning & News
Billy Graham discussed how the Almighty God, who created the whole world, can do anything except interfere with a person's will.
www.christianlearning.com
Billy first referred to Revelations 3:20 to prove his point. It says, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.”
I actually held that belief before I ever read he taught that.
I believe God has honored that from the day he breathed life into Adam and continues this day, even after the crucifixion of the
of the second and last Adam, Jesus Christ.
I cannot put the actual term Predestination on this but I can say I believe it to be by design. Or Pre-planned.
Except, to me there are specific people who were pre-selected and pre-determined to do the job God had for them.
Prophets, Job (especially) , the Disciples, including Judas , the additional apostles, and others that had a specific role to play down through history. These I would say were predestined because even though God is all knowing, I believe there are some things he would not leave to chance.
As I understood things when I was. Except it did not "fit" me.
Maranatha,
Amen, amen
Yeah and? Lines up with my definition perfectly. The best part is, I still could have been determined to do so and yet remain free.
It most certainly does. God's foreknowledge is dependent upon your choices and well. This violates his aseity.
The best part is your will is not free. Your will is bound to God's foreknowledge. You cannot choose other than how God foreknows, you're going to choose.
I have read very little from Mr. Sproul, but he seem to be a very sincere person. I know some folks close to me, actually a neighbor, that had no children, and her husband died a few year back, and she has will everything to their ministry and she a well off by the world's standard.
They are more of the Reformed community of believers, and I'm more along the lines of the old (1648 London Confession of faith) Particular Baptist, not that I hold strictly to what they taught, but to much what they believe and taught. .
FreeInChrist
Active Member
God's foreknowledge does not depend upon my choices.
ηλίθιος
Do you even know what foreknowledge is?
foreknowledge /fôr-nŏl′ĭj, fôr′nŏl″-/
noun
- Knowledge or awareness of something before its existence or occurrence; prescience.
- Knowledge of a thing before it happens, or of whatever is to happen; prescience.
Similar: prescience - Knowing beforehand, prescience, foresight, precognition.
The foreknowledge of God refers to His ability to know all events and choices before they happen, which is often linked to His omniscience. This concept suggests that God is aware of everything that will occur, including the decisions made by free agents, without forcing those decisions.
WikipediaYOU need to learn the application to the Heavenly Father and how they apply to humans.... and why
FreeInChrist
Active Member
What five question symbols?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
If I choose, God does not foreknow THEN I choose.... that falls under the definition of predestination.
for knowledge means knowing before that it is going to happen.
Now I understand why you are where you are in your beliefs..... applicable terminology is messed up in your mind, similar to a word scramble.
TibiasDad
Active Member
You choose, not God chooses what you will choose.
A self-stultifying argument! Black cannot be white. God’s determination that I will do X always precedes my choosing X. I cannot be free to do anything other than X.
(And the old “you choose what you desire most” argument doesn’t fly either, because God’s determination fixes what I will desire as well.)
Doug
@FreeInChrist
You could have said.."who is a very sweet, kind, loveable, considerate, longsuffering, patience, friend of mine, whom I look up to".
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FreeInChrist
Active Member
And lets not forget who offered to baptize me. (long story people... you do not want to hear about.... trust me)@FreeInChrist
You could have said.."who is a very sweet, kind, loveable, considerate, longsuffering, patience, friend of mine, whom I look up to".
But you have exceeded 5.
atpollard
Active Member
ηλιθιος
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the MGNT.
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the TR.
… just FYI.
atpollard
Active Member
Romans 8:29 gives us “προέγνω” [Verb - Aorist Active Indicative - 3rd Person Singular]
[G4267] προγινώσκω; 2 aorist 3 person singular προέγνω; perfect passive participle προεγνωσμενος; to have knowledge of beforehand; to foreknow: namely, ταῦτα, 2 Peter 3:17, cf. 2 Peter 3:14, 16; τινα, Acts 26:5; οὕς προέγνω, whom he (God) foreknew, namely, that they would love him, or (with reference to what follows) whom he foreknew to be fit to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, Romans 8:29 (τῶν εἰς αὐτόν (Χριστόν) πιστεύειν προεγνωσμενων, Justin Martyr, dialog contr Trypho, c. 42; προγινώσκει (ὁ Θεός) τινας ἐκ μετανοίας σωθήσεσθαι μέλλοντας, id. Apology 1:28); ὅν προέγνω, whose character he clearly saw beforehand, Rom. 11: (1 Lachmann in brackets), Romans 11:2 (against those who in the preceding passages from Rom. explain προγινώσκειν as meaning to predestinate, cf. Meyer, Philippi, Van Hengel); προεγνωσμένου, namely, ὑπό τοῦ Θεοῦ(foreknown by God, although not yet 'made manifest' to men), 1 Peter 1:20. (Wis. 6:14 Wis. 8:8 Wis. 18:6; Euripides, Xenophon, Plato, Herodian, Philostr., others.)
- Thayer’s Lexicon
(Verb) Knowledge of PEOPLE, not of FACTS.
[G4267] προγινώσκω; 2 aorist 3 person singular προέγνω; perfect passive participle προεγνωσμενος; to have knowledge of beforehand; to foreknow: namely, ταῦτα, 2 Peter 3:17, cf. 2 Peter 3:14, 16; τινα, Acts 26:5; οὕς προέγνω, whom he (God) foreknew, namely, that they would love him, or (with reference to what follows) whom he foreknew to be fit to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, Romans 8:29 (τῶν εἰς αὐτόν (Χριστόν) πιστεύειν προεγνωσμενων, Justin Martyr, dialog contr Trypho, c. 42; προγινώσκει (ὁ Θεός) τινας ἐκ μετανοίας σωθήσεσθαι μέλλοντας, id. Apology 1:28); ὅν προέγνω, whose character he clearly saw beforehand, Rom. 11: (1 Lachmann in brackets), Romans 11:2 (against those who in the preceding passages from Rom. explain προγινώσκειν as meaning to predestinate, cf. Meyer, Philippi, Van Hengel); προεγνωσμένου, namely, ὑπό τοῦ Θεοῦ(foreknown by God, although not yet 'made manifest' to men), 1 Peter 1:20. (Wis. 6:14 Wis. 8:8 Wis. 18:6; Euripides, Xenophon, Plato, Herodian, Philostr., others.)
- Thayer’s Lexicon
(Verb) Knowledge of PEOPLE, not of FACTS.
I disagree. God determines what I will choose. God determined Judas would betray Christ long before he ever did.
Show me God determing my choices means i did not actually freely choose. If determine your going to take your hat off and yell, 'hey, your hat is on fire", and you quickly take it off. Did you freel choose to take it off?
He is your creator, so that is correct. That being said its true, you do choose your greatest desire at the moment you choose. Unless you can demonstrate otherwise.
How would He know what they were? You bind Gods foreknowledge to your choices.God's foreknowledge does not depend upon my choices.
ηλίθιος
Do you even know what foreknowledge is?
foreknowledge /fôr-nŏl′ĭj, fôr′nŏl″-/
noun
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition
- Knowledge or awareness of something before its existence or occurrence; prescience.
- Knowledge of a thing before it happens, or of whatever is to happen; prescience.
Similar: prescience- Knowing beforehand, prescience, foresight, precognition.
The foreknowledge of God refers to His ability to know all events and choices before they happen, which is often linked to His omniscience. This concept suggests that God is aware of everything that will occur, including the decisions made by free agents, without forcing those decisions.baptists.net
YOU need to learn the application to the Heavenly Father and how they apply to humans.... and why
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Well, He was around before I was... and therefore I cannot be charged with that heresy.
How would he know what they were?
Seriously?
How would he know who to predestine to Salvation?
He knows all. Do you not understand that.
He knows the beginning to the end.
I cannot believe you are such a fatalist.
What does " You bind Gods foreknowledge to your choices." even mean?
So you for one minute believe that God had no clue that Eve, then Adam
would screw up humanity?
Or do you believe that God actually made them that way so humanity would suffer?
Or is it not just possible God knew what they were capable of and the likely hood
that they could mess up before he breathed life into Adam?
He never limited the angels. They were not robots worshipping him they had their will
to worship or even be as "Helel" was (look it up)
Certainly He knew how Michael's and Gabriel's would be... else they would not have
been arch angels ... and He also knew "Helel's ways... and that he would be evil always.
Same as for you, and me.
And also Jeffrey Dahmer.... and Karla Faye Tucker's inclinations... so the one has been doomed and
the other was given what it took to make a total conversion.
Why do you not see this?
He is involved with salvation on both sides of the predestined coin... One allows us the opportunity
to over come ourselves, the other chooses to ignore ... period.
