Title: So You Think Predestination Started When and With Whom?

[jeremiah1five]

I noticed you have your personal opinion and no scripture. I have scripture for the authority of men over women in both the home( marriage ) and the church- the two institutions of God. We are talking about roles/offices in the church.The family is the same in how God designed it with men having the role as head over the family. The church reflects the same types of roles giving men the headship/oversight in the church and family.

1 Tim 2:11-15
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

By mentioning Eve Saul is addressing marriage.

The N.T. outline for teachers/elders in the church for leadership.

Acts 14:23
When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

1 Tim 3:1-7
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Titus 1:5-9
5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. 6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless — not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8 Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

I said no woman can be an elder in the sense of overseeing a fellowship. But she can be an elder according to the definition of the word which means "aged, senior citizen."

1 Tim 2:11-15
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

1 Tim 5:17-19
Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages." 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

1 Peter 3:1-6
In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2 as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. 3 Your adornment must not be merely external — braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.

1 Peter 5:1-5
Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; 3 nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 5 You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble

James 5:14-15
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up.

No woman can be an elder as supervising a fellowship.

And I have provided Scripture in my prior response.

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five ,

Sigh, SMH, I have asked you variations of this before but when you say this

Salvation is OF THE LORD.
Salvation is OF THE JEWS.
But nowhere in Scripture does it say salvation is of the Gentiles.
Universalism is NOT taught in God's Word the Bible.

YOU lose all credibility of your personal beliefs and interpretations because you do not seem to understand what it is that you are reading.
FOR THE LAST TIME, MAYBE What does the last verse copied below mean..... AND why? (Romans 11)
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.”

4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

8 just as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.

10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
I am certain you do not like Paul because Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.....
But no longer can you claim " But nowhere in Scripture does it say salvation is of the Gentiles." It is right in front of your eyes.View attachment 2171

And if you say it does not say what it says, then explain why it is there.

God does not lie.
He made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and his Hebrew seed.
The Jews called mixed heritage Hebrews Samaritan and not Jew in same prejudice the Jews call mixed heritage Hebrews "Gentile" and not Jew.

Samaritan were the descendants of the ten northern kingdom tribes and non-Hebrews and "Gentiles" are the descendants of mixed heritage Hebrews of the two southern kingdom tribes and no0n-Hebrews. They grew up in Gentile lands for about 29-35 generations assimilated into Greek culture. They lost their heritage, they were not circumcised, they were Gentile because after several generations they grew up as Gentile.

God does not lie. There are no Gentiles named, mentioned or included in the Abraham Covenant. God makes this explicitly known by repeating several times my covenant is with YOU and YOUR seed.

The only way a Gentile can be saved is to have at least one Hebrew parent in their ancestry. The Lord knows them that are His.

There is no covenant in the Hebrew Scripture between the God of Abraham and non-Hebrew Gentiles.
None.
And no one has yet to post Scripture that shows God dealing with a non-Hebrew Gentile, identify his name, and describe the terms of covenant. None.

 

[FreeInChrist]

God does not lie.
He made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and his Hebrew seed.
The Jews called mixed heritage Hebrews Samaritan and not Jew in same prejudice the Jews call mixed heritage Hebrews "Gentile" and not Jew.

Does one need a covenant and what does it benefit them?

If one does not have a covenant then does that mean that they are without God?

YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION of WHAT THE FPOLLOWING MEANS.

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
But no longer can you claim " But nowhere in Scripture does it say salvation is of the Gentiles." It is right in front of your eyes.View attachment 2171

The Gentiles were given salvation. with or without your covenant that you feel is so important.
The Jew and the Gentile have been regarded differently by MY HEAVENLY FATHER .
Different rules and it is not up to you to tell God He is wrong.

Now read and learn something.

In Ephesians Paul teaches that Gentiles were not natural recipients of the covenants though they were included. Beginning with Abraham, the Lord made promises to bring a Deliverer through Abraham’s family. The family of Abraham are the Jewish people, beginning with Isaac. Prior to Isaac, there was no such thing as Jew or Gentile. By definition, the word Gentile means someone who is not Jewish, therefore the concept of a Gentile has no meaning unless a Jewish nation exists.
Therefore, we say Isaac was the first Jew (i.e., the first in Abraham’s family to receive the promises). All who descend from Isaac and Jacob are the people of the covenant. Later, God elaborates on His covenant by speaking through the prophets and eventually through Christ Himself. All these promises were given to the Jewish people, not to Gentiles, and only those who trace their ancestry to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may be considered Jews.
So on this point of the Gentiles not having a covenant you are correct
However: Thankfully, the Lord also made accommodation for Gentiles IN His covenants:
Are you paying attention???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Jewish people, not to Gentiles, and only those who trace their ancestry to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may be considered Jews.

Thankfully, the Lord also made accommodation for Gentiles in His covenants:

Gen. 12:1 describes God's call to Abram, instructing him to leave his country, family, and father's house to go to a land that God would show him. This marks the beginning of Abram's journey and the establishment of a covenant relationship with God.​

Notice in the covenant given to Abraham, the Lord declared that through Abraham’s family (i.e., the Jewish people) all families (i.e., the Gentiles) would be blessed. Clearly, the Lord sees other nations as distinct from Abraham’s family because He declares Abraham’s family will become a great nation apart from all other families on earth.

So the Lord promised that He would extend the blessing He assigned to the Jewish people into all the world. Gentiles are the not recipients of the covenants but we do have opportunity to participate in them (by faith) and therefore receive the blessings of these promises. Paul describes our relationship to the covenants given to Israel in this way:
GEN 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father’s house, To the land which I will show you;
GEN 12:2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;
GEN 12:3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”
Repeat that....
And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

All the way back in Genesis your beliefs have been shown to be not.
Now... enter the part of the Bible you never study..... or have you simply redacted it?
Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Romans 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Do YOU even understand what this is talking about and why? Do you remember when Jesus said in Matt 13: when his disciples asked why he spoke in parables?

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given

Is it possible you simply do not understand the parable of the Olive Tree? That would explain a lot.

But the explanation is....

WE, Gentiles are “grafted” into the promises given to Israel by our faith in Christ, Who is the promised fulfillment of those covenants.

Paul says were are being grafted into a root that we were not naturally a part of, though we now are nourished by the root.

The root in Paul’s analogy is the nation of Israel and the covenants God gave to that nation.
We are not naturally born Jews, but nevertheless we are receiving what God promised to the Jews by our faith.

And my final 2 cents on this is.... WE are grafted in, we ARE NOT Predestined from before time else there would not have been a specific covenant made with a specific people because there would not have needed to be. Everything would be different in all people.

Now, @jeremiah1five I am sure you wish I would go away. So sorry, it aint happening. At least not until you answer my question then I will take it under advisement.

Samaritan were the descendants of the ten northern kingdom tribes and non-Hebrews and "Gentiles" are the descendants of mixed heritage Hebrews of the two southern kingdom tribes and no0n-Hebrews. They grew up in Gentile lands for about 29-35 generations assimilated into Greek culture. They lost their heritage, they were not circumcised, they were Gentile because after several generations they grew up as Gentile.

God does not lie. There are no Gentiles named, mentioned or included in the Abraham Covenant. God makes this explicitly known by repeating several times my covenant is with YOU and YOUR seed.

The only way a Gentile can be saved is to have at least one Hebrew parent in their ancestry. The Lord knows them that are His.

There is no covenant in the Hebrew Scripture between the God of Abraham and non-Hebrew Gentiles.
None.
And no one has yet to post Scripture that shows God dealing with a non-Hebrew Gentile, identify his name, and describe the terms of covenant. None.

 

[David Koberstein]

Does one need a covenant and what does it benefit them?

If one does not have a covenant then does that mean that they are without God?

YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION of WHAT THE FPOLLOWING MEANS.

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
But no longer can you claim " But nowhere in Scripture does it say salvation is of the Gentiles." It is right in front of your eyes.View attachment 2171

The Gentiles were given salvation. with or without your covenant that you feel is so important.
The Jew and the Gentile have been regarded differently by MY HEAVENLY FATHER .
Different rules and it is not up to you to tell God He is wrong.

Now read and learn something.

In Ephesians Paul teaches that Gentiles were not natural recipients of the covenants though they were included. Beginning with Abraham, the Lord made promises to bring a Deliverer through Abraham’s family. The family of Abraham are the Jewish people, beginning with Isaac. Prior to Isaac, there was no such thing as Jew or Gentile. By definition, the word Gentile means someone who is not Jewish, therefore the concept of a Gentile has no meaning unless a Jewish nation exists.
Therefore, we say Isaac was the first Jew (i.e., the first in Abraham’s family to receive the promises). All who descend from Isaac and Jacob are the people of the covenant. Later, God elaborates on His covenant by speaking through the prophets and eventually through Christ Himself. All these promises were given to the Jewish people, not to Gentiles, and only those who trace their ancestry to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may be considered Jews.
So on this point of the Gentiles not having a covenant you are correct
However: Thankfully, the Lord also made accommodation for Gentiles IN His covenants:
Are you paying attention???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Jewish people, not to Gentiles, and only those who trace their ancestry to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may be considered Jews.

Thankfully, the Lord also made accommodation for Gentiles in His covenants:

Gen. 12:1 describes God's call to Abram, instructing him to leave his country, family, and father's house to go to a land that God would show him. This marks the beginning of Abram's journey and the establishment of a covenant relationship with God.​

Notice in the covenant given to Abraham, the Lord declared that through Abraham’s family (i.e., the Jewish people) all families (i.e., the Gentiles) would be blessed. Clearly, the Lord sees other nations as distinct from Abraham’s family because He declares Abraham’s family will become a great nation apart from all other families on earth.

So the Lord promised that He would extend the blessing He assigned to the Jewish people into all the world. Gentiles are the not recipients of the covenants but we do have opportunity to participate in them (by faith) and therefore receive the blessings of these promises. Paul describes our relationship to the covenants given to Israel in this way:
GEN 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father’s house, To the land which I will show you;
GEN 12:2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;
GEN 12:3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”
Repeat that....
And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

All the way back in Genesis your beliefs have been shown to be not.
Now... enter the part of the Bible you never study..... or have you simply redacted it?
Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Romans 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Do YOU even understand what this is talking about and why? Do you remember when Jesus said in Matt 13: when his disciples asked why he spoke in parables?

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given

Is it possible you simply do not understand the parable of the Olive Tree? That would explain a lot.

But the explanation is....

WE, Gentiles are “grafted” into the promises given to Israel by our faith in Christ, Who is the promised fulfillment of those covenants.

Paul says were are being grafted into a root that we were not naturally a part of, though we now are nourished by the root.

The root in Paul’s analogy is the nation of Israel and the covenants God gave to that nation.
We are not naturally born Jews, but nevertheless we are receiving what God promised to the Jews by our faith.

And my final 2 cents on this is.... WE are grafted in, we ARE NOT Predestined from before time else there would not have been a specific covenant made with a specific people because there would not have needed to be. Everything would be different in all people.

Now, @jeremiah1five I am sure you wish I would go away. So sorry, it aint happening. At least not until you answer my question then I will take it under advisement.

I enjoy reading your response! You would make a great Messianic Rabbi! Please don't stop posting. Contrary to popular belief there are Messianic Gentiles.
Blessings in our Messiah!

 

[civic]

By mentioning Eve Saul is addressing marriage.

I said no woman can be an elder in the sense of overseeing a fellowship. But she can be an elder according to the definition of the word which means "aged, senior citizen."

No woman can be an elder as supervising a fellowship.

And I have provided Scripture in my prior response.

that would include the pastor position.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Does one need a covenant and what does it benefit them?

If one does not have a covenant then does that mean that they are without God?

YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION of WHAT THE FPOLLOWING MEANS.

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
But no longer can you claim " But nowhere in Scripture does it say salvation is of the Gentiles." It is right in front of your eyes.View attachment 2171

The Gentiles were given salvation. with or without your covenant that you feel is so important.
The Jew and the Gentile have been regarded differently by MY HEAVENLY FATHER .
Different rules and it is not up to you to tell God He is wrong.

Now read and learn something.

In Ephesians Paul teaches that Gentiles were not natural recipients of the covenants though they were included. Beginning with Abraham, the Lord made promises to bring a Deliverer through Abraham’s family. The family of Abraham are the Jewish people, beginning with Isaac. Prior to Isaac, there was no such thing as Jew or Gentile. By definition, the word Gentile means someone who is not Jewish, therefore the concept of a Gentile has no meaning unless a Jewish nation exists.
Therefore, we say Isaac was the first Jew (i.e., the first in Abraham’s family to receive the promises). All who descend from Isaac and Jacob are the people of the covenant. Later, God elaborates on His covenant by speaking through the prophets and eventually through Christ Himself. All these promises were given to the Jewish people, not to Gentiles, and only those who trace their ancestry to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may be considered Jews.
So on this point of the Gentiles not having a covenant you are correct
However: Thankfully, the Lord also made accommodation for Gentiles IN His covenants:
Are you paying attention???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Jewish people, not to Gentiles, and only those who trace their ancestry to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may be considered Jews.

Thankfully, the Lord also made accommodation for Gentiles in His covenants:

Gen. 12:1 describes God's call to Abram, instructing him to leave his country, family, and father's house to go to a land that God would show him. This marks the beginning of Abram's journey and the establishment of a covenant relationship with God.​

Notice in the covenant given to Abraham, the Lord declared that through Abraham’s family (i.e., the Jewish people) all families (i.e., the Gentiles) would be blessed. Clearly, the Lord sees other nations as distinct from Abraham’s family because He declares Abraham’s family will become a great nation apart from all other families on earth.

So the Lord promised that He would extend the blessing He assigned to the Jewish people into all the world. Gentiles are the not recipients of the covenants but we do have opportunity to participate in them (by faith) and therefore receive the blessings of these promises. Paul describes our relationship to the covenants given to Israel in this way:
GEN 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father’s house, To the land which I will show you;
GEN 12:2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;
GEN 12:3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”
Repeat that....
And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

All the way back in Genesis your beliefs have been shown to be not.
Now... enter the part of the Bible you never study..... or have you simply redacted it?
Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Romans 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Do YOU even understand what this is talking about and why? Do you remember when Jesus said in Matt 13: when his disciples asked why he spoke in parables?

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given

Is it possible you simply do not understand the parable of the Olive Tree? That would explain a lot.

But the explanation is....

WE, Gentiles are “grafted” into the promises given to Israel by our faith in Christ, Who is the promised fulfillment of those covenants.

Paul says were are being grafted into a root that we were not naturally a part of, though we now are nourished by the root.

The root in Paul’s analogy is the nation of Israel and the covenants God gave to that nation.
We are not naturally born Jews, but nevertheless we are receiving what God promised to the Jews by our faith.

And my final 2 cents on this is.... WE are grafted in, we ARE NOT Predestined from before time else there would not have been a specific covenant made with a specific people because there would not have needed to be. Everything would be different in all people.

Now, @jeremiah1five I am sure you wish I would go away. So sorry, it aint happening. At least not until you answer my question then I will take it under advisement.

The Abrahamic Covenant was exclusively established between God and Abram the Hebrew (Genesis 14:13), extending solely to Abram's Hebrew descendants (Genesis 17:7). No non-Hebrews were included in this covenant.

Jesus explicitly stated He came to fulfill the Mosaic Law, not destroy it. If the Mosaic Covenant, as was indeed the case, excluded non-Hebrews, then claiming today that non-Hebrew Gentiles are atoned for alongside Israel implies Jesus altered the Law. Such an alteration would effectively destroy the Law, rendering atonement impossible, as God specifically used the Mosaic system of substitutionary sacrifice, covenanted with the children of Israel.

Consequently, when God scattered His people through the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests, exiling them to Gentile lands, 29-35 generations of Jews grew up in these foreign environments from 722 BC until Jesus' arrival. Due to this prolonged exposure, these Jews essentially adopted Gentile customs, largely losing their Hebrew heritage. This is exemplified by Jesus' encounter with the Samaritan woman at the well. She claimed descent from Jacob but was of mixed heritage, being an offspring of the ten northern tribes and Gentiles. The same applies to the two southern tribes, whose offspring also intermarried with Gentiles, learning Gentile ways for approximately 586 years until Jesus' advent.

These mixed-heritage Jews were pejoratively called "Samaritan" or "Gentile" by other Jews, highlighting a prejudice against their non-pure Hebrew lineage. To assert these individuals were non-Hebrews would contradict the Law, as Jesus atoned for the sins of Israel, not Gentiles, under the Law. There's no scriptural evidence of a high priest leaving Israel to offer sacrifices for Gentile sins. God placed Abraham's offspring under His Law and commanded substitutionary sacrifices to atone for Israel's sins.

At the Last Passover, the twelve disciples, representing the twelve tribes of Israel, were present when Jesus instituted the New Covenant in His body and blood. He clearly identified the recipients of His sacrifice, stating of His body and blood, they are "given to you"—referring to the twelve disciples, and by extension, the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[jeremiah1five]

that would include the pastor position.

Concerning the spiritual order, Christ rules the spiritual realm. The five gift ministries described in Ephesians 4 are spiritual offices. Under the spiritual order it is Christ and then everyone else in the body of Christ. This order identifies men and women equal before the Lord as described by Saul in Galatians 3:28-29, that in Christ there is neither male nor female. Under this rule of Christ, a woman can be called of God to apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher. There were already women prophets. And if prophets there is nothing preventing women to be operating in the other gift ministries of Ephesians 4. Here are examples:

Romans 16:3:
Priscilla (Romans 16:3):

Teacher: Priscilla, often mentioned with her husband Aquila, is notably mentioned first in the biblical accounts (five out of seven times). She and Aquila were instrumental in "explaining to [Apollos] the way of God more accurately" (Acts 18:26). This clearly identifies her as a teacher and mentor, even to a prominent evangelist like Apollos. They also hosted house churches, which often served as centers for teaching and fellowship.
Co-worker in Christ Jesus: Paul calls both Priscilla and Aquila his "helpers in Christ Jesus" or "co-workers," a term he uses for other prominent male ministry partners.

Also:

Junia (Romans 16:7):

Apostle: Paul describes Andronicus and Junia as "my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." The crucial phrase is "of note among the apostles" (ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις).

 

[FreeInChrist]

I enjoy reading your response! You would make a great Messianic Rabbi! Please don't stop posting. Contrary to popular belief there are Messianic Gentiles.
Blessings in our Messiah!

Thank you, That is the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me.

But I will tell you the truth. It is not I. It is the Holy Spirit working through me.

I cannot tell you the number of times that I write a firm conviction of my beliefs and then a few days or longer later I run across it
as I am catching up on a thread, and I see I wrote it, but it seems it was not written by me. I almost do not recognize it,

I have learned to wait for inspiration before opening my mouth and planting my foot in it. (At least I am trying)

Even this AM the first 3 that I started a reply to, my mind went blank after a paragraph or two until I just could not stop.

So I shall try to do my best to carry the truth forward until His return.

Maranatha

Amen Amen

 

[civic]

may the Greeks/ Gentiles NEVER FORGET- we/they have been grafted into the Vine ( Israel-Jews ).

and never forget our Savior is a Jew. He came to His own. And only because of their initial rejection of Him did we get grafted into the Vine- but God has not abandoned His people- Now that they have been gathered into their land in recent history the biblical events are unfording before our very eyes and when Christ returns at His 2nd Coming to wage war on the nations coming against her then they as prophecied will recognize Him who they have pierced as their Messiah as Zechariah 12 declares. He will deliver them from the nations that come against her. And the blood bath will be up to the horses bridle in the valley of Megiddo. This world has no idea of what is coming upon them and if you though the plagues of Egypt were something to behold- the great tribulation will make it pale in comparison. This one is world wide not local.

 

[David Koberstein]

that would include the pastor position.

Depends on the situation.

 

[FreeInChrist]

.

 

[civic]

You did not even read what I wrote.

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
But no longer can you claim " But nowhere in Scripture does it say salvation is of the Gentiles." It is right in front of your eyes.View attachment 2171

The Gentiles were given salvation. with or without your covenant that you feel is so important.
The Jew and the Gentile have been regarded differently by MY HEAVENLY FATHER .
Different rules and it is not up to you to tell God He is wrong.
Further
In Ephesians Paul teaches that Gentiles were not natural recipients of the covenants though they were included.

DID YOU SEE WHAT WAS WRITTEN IN RED? Gentiles were not natural recipients of the covenants

Beginning with Abraham, the Lord made promises to bring a Deliverer through Abraham’s family. The family of Abraham are the Jewish people, beginning with Isaac. Prior to Isaac, there was no such thing as Jew or Gentile. By definition, the word Gentile means someone who is not Jewish, therefore the concept of a Gentile has no meaning unless a Jewish nation exists.
Therefore, we say Isaac was the first Jew (i.e., the first in Abraham’s family to receive the promises). All who descend from Isaac and Jacob are the people of the covenant. Later, God elaborates on His covenant by speaking through the prophets and eventually through Christ Himself. All these promises were given to the Jewish people, not to Gentiles, and only those who trace their ancestry to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may be considered Jews.
So on this point of the Gentiles not having a covenant you are correct
However: Thankfully, the Lord also made accommodation for Gentiles IN His covenants:
And did you see what was written here "All these promises were given to the Jewish people, not to Gentiles, and only those who trace their ancestry to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may be considered Jews."

NOT TO GENTILES.

But in your arrogance you did not read, or God purposely blinded you to how he made accommodations to the Gentiles.... which is spelled above.

You should put your opening statement in your signature.

I'm as pro Jew/Israel as any Kosher Jew. . Its in the very core of my being.

They are the key to Gods plan in these end times. They are the time-clock. They are what prophecy is about. Some have forgotten they are the apple of Gods eye and have dismissed that unchanging fact about YHWH and His promises to them.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The Abrahamic Covenant was exclusively established between God and Abram the Hebrew (Genesis 14:13), extending solely to Abram's Hebrew descendants (Genesis 17:7). No non-Hebrews were included in this covenant.

Jesus explicitly stated He came to fulfill the Mosaic Law, not destroy it. If the Mosaic Covenant, as was indeed the case, excluded non-Hebrews, then claiming today that non-Hebrew Gentiles are atoned for alongside Israel implies Jesus altered the Law. Such an alteration would effectively destroy the Law, rendering atonement impossible, as God specifically used the Mosaic system of substitutionary sacrifice, covenanted with the children of Israel.

Consequently, when God scattered His people through the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests, exiling them to Gentile lands, 29-35 generations of Jews grew up in these foreign environments from 722 BC until Jesus' arrival. Due to this prolonged exposure, these Jews essentially adopted Gentile customs, largely losing their Hebrew heritage. This is exemplified by Jesus' encounter with the Samaritan woman at the well. She claimed descent from Jacob but was of mixed heritage, being an offspring of the ten northern tribes and Gentiles. The same applies to the two southern tribes, whose offspring also intermarried with Gentiles, learning Gentile ways for approximately 586 years until Jesus' advent.

These mixed-heritage Jews were pejoratively called "Samaritan" or "Gentile" by other Jews, highlighting a prejudice against their non-pure Hebrew lineage. To assert these individuals were non-Hebrews would contradict the Law, as Jesus atoned for the sins of Israel, not Gentiles, under the Law. There's no scriptural evidence of a high priest leaving Israel to offer sacrifices for Gentile sins. God placed Abraham's offspring under His Law and commanded substitutionary sacrifices to atone for Israel's sins.

At the Last Passover, the twelve disciples, representing the twelve tribes of Israel, were present when Jesus instituted the New Covenant in His body and blood. He clearly identified the recipients of His sacrifice, stating of His body and blood, they are "given to you"—referring to the twelve disciples, and by extension, the twelve tribes of Israel.

You did not even read what I wrote.

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
But no longer can you claim " But nowhere in Scripture does it say salvation is of the Gentiles." It is right in front of your eyes.View attachment 2171

The Gentiles were given salvation. with or without your covenant that you feel is so important.
The Jew and the Gentile have been regarded differently by MY HEAVENLY FATHER .
Different rules and it is not up to you to tell God He is wrong.
Further
In Ephesians Paul teaches that Gentiles were not natural recipients of the covenants though they were included.

DID YOU SEE WHAT WAS WRITTEN IN RED? Gentiles were not natural recipients of the covenants

Beginning with Abraham, the Lord made promises to bring a Deliverer through Abraham’s family. The family of Abraham are the Jewish people, beginning with Isaac. Prior to Isaac, there was no such thing as Jew or Gentile. By definition, the word Gentile means someone who is not Jewish, therefore the concept of a Gentile has no meaning unless a Jewish nation exists.
Therefore, we say Isaac was the first Jew (i.e., the first in Abraham’s family to receive the promises). All who descend from Isaac and Jacob are the people of the covenant. Later, God elaborates on His covenant by speaking through the prophets and eventually through Christ Himself. All these promises were given to the Jewish people, not to Gentiles, and only those who trace their ancestry to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may be considered Jews.
So on this point of the Gentiles not having a covenant you are correct
However: Thankfully, the Lord also made accommodation for Gentiles IN His covenants:
And did you see what was written here "All these promises were given to the Jewish people, not to Gentiles, and only those who trace their ancestry to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may be considered Jews."

NOT TO GENTILES.

But in your arrogance you did not read, or God purposely blinded you to how he made accommodations to the Gentiles.... which is spelled above.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I'm as pro Jew/Israel as any Kosher Jew. . Its in the very core of my being.

They are the key to Gods plan in these end times. They are the time-clock. They are what prophecy is about. Some have forgotten they are the apple of Gods eye and have dismissed that unchanging fact about YHWH and His promises to them.

Sorry 2 posts got wedded together... I just split them.

I am right there with you. And anyone who cannot see how they are in God's plan either is totally racist or totally dumb. Maybe both.

 

[civic]

Sorry 2 posts got wedded together... I just split them.

I am right there with you. And anyone who cannot see how they are in God's plan either is totally racist or totally dumb. Maybe both.

Or blinded by their doctrine to the truth contained in scripture

 

[FreeInChrist]

Or blinded by their doctrine to the truth contained in scripture

Which begs the question if as

John 12:40 says “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”

that some, even here, (though I would pray that is not the case) are being blinded?

I only know that when the same arguments are made, almost ad nauseum, that do not even garner a reply
it is obvious that either they do not get read or are read but not understood. Same goes for
posted scripture.

Even Matt 13: This is why I speak to them in parables: ‘Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled: ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

15For this people’s heart has grown callous; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.’

Certainly could explain why some do not understand that Olive tree parable.

IDK, but I want to.

I will freely admit that in my short time here I have read and come to a different understanding then when I first joined.

And comfortably so I am in a better place.

 

[brightfame52]

: So You Think Predestination Started When and With Whom?​

It started before the foundation of the world within the Eternal Purpose of God in Christ Eph 3:9-11

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[brightfame52]

@jeremiah1five

The Abrahamic Covenant is the first of three Hebrew covenants between God, Abram

False, the Abrahamic Covenant Abraham had revealed to him, was international in scope unto all nations Gen 12:

Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 ;And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Abraham at the time was a idol worshipping chaldean.

This covenant was entirely conditioned on Gods promise, Abraham didnt have any conditions to perform either