We choose. We chose. You choose. You chose. You will choose.

[makesends]

I'll have a extensive discuss with you on the order of salvation if you like. I believe I remember you saying that you're not a Calvinist nor a Arminian. If so, that would be productive conversation.

I have consistently stated that Repentance is the last step in salvation. Repentance is a "Holy Thing". A person can not see themselves fully for what they are without being "born again". Such requires the "Spirit of God".

Calvinism actually understands this better than Arminianism. However, they have ridiculously separated regeneration and placed it at the beginning so to establish the exclusive nature of their election.

Don't be surprised if by the end of our 'discussion' you think me a Calvinist. I even call myself Reformed to shorten discussions, and so those with beliefs like mine can sooner enjoy fellowship with me. On another site, I call myself "Reformed — Calvinist by reputation". I have certain disagreements with classical Calvinism, and strong disagreements with what most people think of as Hyper-Calvinism, but in some ways, I don't think Calvinism goes far enough.

You are right that a person cannot see themselves fully for what they are without being "born again". In fact, even then they can't see themselves fully for what they are, nor can they know the extent of their sin, nor can they know the extent of the horror that sin is, nor can they know extent of the purity of God, even after they are born of the Spirit —but the Spirit of God does know*. Thus repentance, like belief, and like consecration, is not real unless it is "wrought of the Spirit".

*(Indeed even the understanding of Scripture —even one small passage— is never complete to the believer, but it is, to the Spirit. Thus the incremental nature, and the constant correction and redirection of our understanding.)

 

[praise_yeshua]

Don't be surprised if by the end of our 'discussion' you think me a Calvinist. I even call myself Reformed to shorten discussions, and so those with beliefs like mine can sooner enjoy fellowship with me. On another site, I call myself "Reformed — Calvinist by reputation". I have certain disagreements with classical Calvinism, and strong disagreements with what most people think of as Hyper-Calvinism, but in some ways, I don't think Calvinism goes far enough.

You are right that a person cannot see themselves fully for what they are without being "born again". In fact, even then they can't see themselves fully for what they are, nor can they know the extent of their sin, nor can they know the extent of the horror that sin is, nor can they know extent of the purity of God, even after they are born of the Spirit —but the Spirit of God does know*. Thus repentance, like belief, and like consecration, is not real unless it is "wrought of the Spirit".

*(Indeed even the understanding of Scripture —even one small passage— is never complete to the believer, but it is, to the Spirit. Thus the incremental nature, and the constant correction and redirection of our understanding.)

I will start a thread. Order or Salvation......

 

[praise_yeshua]

makesends said:
I'm trying to get across to you the logical sequence—what causes what...

Notice that, in effect, you change here, what I called "logical sequence", to "temporal sequence". The one does not cause the other. You have misrepresented me.

I wasn't trying to misrepresent you.

Can you explain the difference? There is no logical sequence without temporal order.

 

[makesends]

I wasn't trying to misrepresent you.

Can you explain the difference? There is no logical sequence without temporal order.

Just for starters, was there time before God created time? God is the logical cause of time, whether directly or through other causes.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Just for starters, was there time before God created time? God is the logical cause of time, whether directly or through other causes.

God didn't create time. Just like God didn't create love, mercy, joy and many other things. They are part of Him. As such, they are Eternal. ALL GOOD THINGS COME FROM ABOVE.....

They issue and come forth from God because He is altogether GOOD.

 

[makesends]

God didn't create time. Just like God didn't create love, mercy, joy and many other things. They are part of Him. As such, they are Eternal. ALL GOOD THINGS COME FROM ABOVE.....

They issue and come forth from God because He is altogether GOOD.

So God's eternity only means an infinite continuation of time? Apart from time there is no GOOD?

If time is part of God, like existence and goodness, is the universe part of God?

Is the past no longer real? It was real, but it is not now?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

So God's eternity only means an infinite continuation of time? Apart from time there is no GOOD?

If time is part of God, like existence and goodness, is the universe part of God?

Is the past no longer real? It was real, but it is not now?

I think I need a big does of LSD to understand what this thread has become.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I think I need a big does of LSD to understand what this thread has become.

Dose???

My intent is not to confuse anyone. It is difficult for me to deal with such issues with others because what I say is so different than what anyone else has ever heard today. It has always gotten me into "trouble" with others.

It really isn't difficult to understand. At least not from my perspective.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So God's eternity only means an infinite continuation of time? Apart from time there is no GOOD?

No........

Eternity/Eternal isn't the absence of time. It is the endless measure of time. Time without end.

If time is part of God, like existence and goodness, is the universe part of God?

Not in its entirety. No offense, but I can tell you haven't really dealt with this subject at any length. You're just repeating what you've heard or read someone else say. I have debated this for a long time. I went looking for answers to those debates. I can talk about any piece of this debate you like.

Is the past no longer real? It was real, but it is not now?

Simple answers,

1. is your sin still real?
2. Is Christ endlessly suffering?

Like I said. You haven't really tried to establish your position before with any details. If you had, then you would realize the answers you're giving are contrary to what the Scriptures say.

You're not alone. Most everyone that I've ever engaged on this has just called me crazy. That is fine. It doesn't change the substance of what I believe.

Yes. There is a past with God. Our sins are past with us and past with God. The suffering of Jesus Christ is past.

 

[DeGloria]

Every choice that we make in life we make for some reason. Our decisions are based upon what seems good for us at the moment, all things considered. We do some things out of intense desire. We do other things with no awareness of desire at all. Yet the desire is there or we wouldn’t choose to do them. This is the very essence of free will—to choose according to our desires.

When you when you hear the gospel you can choose to accept it or you can choose to reject it.

 

[makesends]

No........

Eternity/Eternal isn't the absence of time. It is the endless measure of time. Time without end.



Not in its entirety. No offense, but I can tell you haven't really dealt with this subject at any length. You're just repeating what you've heard or read someone else say. I have debated this for a long time. I went looking for answers to those debates. I can talk about any piece of this debate you like.



Simple answers,

1. is your sin still real?
2. Is Christ endlessly suffering?

Like I said. You haven't really tried to establish your position before with any details. If you had, then you would realize the answers you're giving are contrary to what the Scriptures say.

You're not alone. Most everyone that I've ever engaged on this has just called me crazy. That is fine. It doesn't change the substance of what I believe.

Yes. There is a past with God. Our sins are past with us and past with God. The suffering of Jesus Christ is past.

Well, at least, thanks for condescending to speak with me, oh Great Master!
"I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”

 

[Aeliana]

Dose???

My intent is not to confuse anyone. It is difficult for me to deal with such issues with others because what I say is so different than what anyone else has ever heard today. It has always gotten me into "trouble" with others.

It really isn't difficult to understand. At least not from my perspective.

Dose Is Greek for snooze. As in "Snooze you lose" Then you don't get to choose.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well, at least, thanks for condescending to speak with me, oh Great Master!
"I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”

No need to respond to me in such a manner. I'm not the "Great Master" of anyone.

 

[makesends]

No need to respond to me in such a manner. I'm not the "Great Master" of anyone.

You've got THAT right! So stop with the condescension and disrespect.

 

[civic]

C'mon @praise_yeshua and @makesends you guys can have a great dialogue with each other as I'm very familiar with both of you. We ( all of us) can do better than that. You are both very intelligent and astute bible students. I learn from both of you when I rad your posts and we can all learn from each other and sharpen those iron swords of ours.

I have no doubts both of you love the Lord and are brothers in Christ. That goes without question in my mind/heart.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You've got THAT right! So stop with the condescension and disrespect.

It is not my desire to make a enemy of you. I've said things that are overly aggressive and I'm sorry for it. Please forgive me. I do believe you realize that this subject is contentious. As such, it will be a "heated" discussion. I'd believe you have been condescending and disrespectful as well. I never bring this up to most anyone. I believe people should have the freedom to do as they please... just the way they are. It is called freedom. However, I ask that you consider your own responses as well. Again. My apologies.

 

[makesends]

It is not my desire to make a enemy of you. I've said things that are overly aggressive and I'm sorry for it. Please forgive me. I do believe you realize that this subject is contentious. As such, it will be a "heated" discussion. I'd believe you have been condescending and disrespectful as well. I never bring this up to most anyone. I believe people should have the freedom to do as they please... just the way they are. It is called freedom. However, I ask that you consider your own responses as well. Again. My apologies.

I am more than willing to continue, and to watch my own tone in speaking toward you. Please afford me the same courtesy. Note date and timestamp, and to anything you find yourself responding to that came before this post please disregard my discourtesy, condescension and arrogance and whatever else is not useful to the discussion, and I will try to do the same.

 

[makesends]

It is not my desire to make a enemy of you. I've said things that are overly aggressive and I'm sorry for it. Please forgive me. I do believe you realize that this subject is contentious. As such, it will be a "heated" discussion. I'd believe you have been condescending and disrespectful as well. I never bring this up to most anyone. I believe people should have the freedom to do as they please... just the way they are. It is called freedom. However, I ask that you consider your own responses as well. Again. My apologies.

I am more than willing to continue, and to watch my own tone in speaking toward you. Please afford me the same courtesy. Note date and timestamp, and to anything you find yourself responding to that came before this post please disregard my discourtesy, condescension and arrogance and whatever else is not useful to the discussion, and I will try to do the same.

Now there is one more thing, that whether you or I realize it or not, that we constantly do, which is to argue from our own viewpoint, interpreting each other's words as if we understood them. We need to somehow get past that. One thing we can try to do, and to be honest, I don't know how or even if I can do it, though I want to try, but I see the necessity of it, is to neither put my meanings on your words, nor to assume I know what you mean by them.

It is exhausting to go on and on, defining terms, when even the definitions get so scrambled up in terminology we find ourselves talking past each other. Very frustrating. I'm afraid if it happens again I may quit altogether. But I think it is necessary for you and me.

 

[makesends]

@praise_yeshua , I find I want to give @civic a nod here: You may have noticed between him and me, that we can each bite our tongue when necessary. Some things he says are to me so biased and hateful and non-sensical, even personal, that I want to respond in kind, and I'm pretty sure he finds the same thing from me. But it never descends to the level you and I have sunk to. The reason, I'm pretty sure, is that though he says "you", and, "your", and such in the post, I recognize that it is about what I said, or what he thinks I said, or what he thinks Calvinism teaches, (in spite of his experience as a Calvinist ), and not because he disrespects me, in spite of my Calvinistic beliefs. I often think, when I read something he says, "You know better than this!", or, "You're smarter than this!", or, "WHAT???!!!??? HOW CAN YOU COME UP WITH THAT FOOLISHNESS????", so I ask him how (without the caps), instead of calling it foolishness and implying he is morally corrupt, because I know better.

I will try to accord you that same respect, though it is not based on my experience of dealing with you. I recognize it will be equally difficult for you to do, too.