Tensions in Calvin’s Idea of Predestination

[TibiasDad]

I disagree. God determines what I will choose. God determined Judas would betray Christ long before he ever did.

Show me God determing my choices means i did not actually freely choose. If determine your going to take your hat off and yell, 'hey, your hat is on fire", and you quickly take it off. Did you freel choose to take it off?

He is your creator, so that is correct. That being said its true, you do choose your greatest desire at the moment you choose. Unless you can demonstrate otherwise.

Which comes first, God’s choice that I must choose X, or my choice to choose X. Which choice makes it necessary?

If the answer is God’s, then I have no freedom of choice. God has determined everything, including my desires which govern my choices.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

God determined Judas would betray Christ long before he ever did.

A sovereign God a do whatever he wants to with his creation at any given point of time. But that doesn’t mean that that is the rule, but rather the exception.

It could also mean that he simply foresees what the choice will be.

Both ideas avoid meticulous predetermination!

Doug

 

[civic]

A sovereign God a do whatever he wants to with his creation at any given point of time. But that doesn’t mean that that is the rule, but rather the exception.

It could also mean that he simply foresees what the choice will be.

Both ideas avoid meticulous predetermination!

Doug

Exactly it’s the exception. And we know there were many prophecies to be fulfilled with His 1st Coming according to Gods plan.

It’s arrogant to think you or I have a predetermined plan like the Prophets or Apostles.

Many think they are more important than they really are and pride themselves on that misnomer.

 

[TibiasDad]

Exactly it’s the exception. And we know there were many prophecies to be fulfilled with His 1st Coming according to Gods plan.

It’s arrogant to think you or I have a predetermined plan like the Prophets or Apostles.

Many think they are more important than they really are and pride themselves on that misnomer.

And these are not the issue of whether I choose to believe. If justice has any meaning, I must be free to do other than what God wants when it comes to my response to the gospel.

Doug

 

[civic]

And these are not the issue of whether I choose to believe. If justice has any meaning, I must be free to do other than what God wants when it comes to my response to the gospel.

Doug

Amen

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If I choose, God does not foreknow THEN I choose.... that falls under the definition of predestination.

for knowledge means knowing before that it is going to happen.

Now I understand why you are where you are in your beliefs..... applicable terminology is messed up in your mind, similar to a word scramble.

this is confusing.

So God knowing what I would chose before I chose and do the thing I chose to do is not God foreknowing?

 

[FreeInChrist]

this is confusing.

So God knowing what I would chose before I chose and do the thing I chose to do is not God foreknowing?

You have stated it perfectly as to what I believe @Presby02 believes.

Well done, ummm.... His good and faithful servant.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am back.

I am too. Sorry I missed this.

I cannot say I agree with this, exactly. God is all knowing and all sufficient. He CAN do and have whatever he wants...He can speak it and it will be.... but I see it as by design that there are things within the human will.. and also angelic free will ( "Heylel, aka Lucifer aka Satan") that He will not interfere with.

God can NOT sin. So saying God can do anything is not exacting. This is a mistake that Calvinists make over and over again.
This is referenced in theology as the doctrine of Impeccability and Immutability. Evils that exist within philosophy has mixed with the Truth of God throughout history. Philosophy isn't bad in and of itself. It is like most anything else. It can be good. I can be bad. God can't be bad. It is outside of His Character.

I must say that most people don't give much thought to this. Of all the people I've meet in my life, I believe @civic comes about as close to understanding this than anyone I've ever meet.

The future doesn't exist. God however, knows Himself. His own Character. What is within His Character is certain in that it will NEVER CHANGE. Never. The Immutability of God.

However, silly men try to extend this to include themselves. We are always changing. Saying God knows everything we will do in the future is rather implausible given the fact the future doesn't exist. However, God knows what He will do because He is Eternally consistent relative to His own Character. When it does seem that God changes, it is always in the context of man changing. Not God changing. When we change to become more like Him, our relationship with Him changes and He changes toward us. However, it is nothing He wouldn't do if He could do it. There are things God will not do. God is too smart to try to force men to do things beyond their own willingness to do them.

I'm going to let that "sink in" for a while. Consider what I said and I'm ready for the followups.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Billy Graham... you may hate him but he was very wise in many things and he
The late evangelist Billy Graham discussed how the Almighty God, who created the whole world, can do anything except interfere with a person’s will.

Billy Graham ​

Billy Graham Says, 'God Never Interferes With Your Will' | Christian Learning & News

Billy Graham discussed how the Almighty God, who created the whole world, can do anything except interfere with a person's will.

www.christianlearning.com

​

Billy Graham left timeless messages about the nature of God. In one of his sermon clips, he shared about how God will never intervene in a person’s will, including their decision to follow God and be saved.

Billy first referred to Revelations 3:20 to prove his point. It says, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.”

I actually held that belief before I ever read he taught that.

I believe God has honored that from the day he breathed life into Adam and continues this day, even after the crucifixion of the
of the second and last Adam, Jesus Christ.
I cannot put the actual term Predestination on this but I can say I believe it to be by design. Or Pre-planned.

I never hated Billy Graham. Some around me have throughout their lives. The biggest problem I had with him was the way he commercialized the Gospel. Not saying he was very bad. Just worse than I would have liked. Other that, I'm not his judge.

Except, to me there are specific people who were pre-selected and pre-determined to do the job God had for them.

Sure. Jesus Christ. Which is why I said that we must start with Jesus Christ. He is the ONLY ONE NAMED to have preexisted and been purposed. To add anyone else to this list is to not justly recognizing the Glory due such a position.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Prophets, Job (especially) , the Disciples, including Judas , the additional apostles, and others that had a specific role to play down through history. These I would say were predestined because even though God is all knowing, I believe there are some things he would not leave to chance.

I want to deal with this separately because there is a need here to accept what I previously said or you're never going to agree with me in what I'm going to say.

The teaching of the "Remnant" contradicts this.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

There is no context of individual election in the teaching of the Remnant. Elijah wasn't alone. Peter, James, Paul and all the apostles were not alone.

Luk 10:23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
Luk 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

The Remnant are "replacements". The idea that such choice could only be Peter isn't true at all. God had others that could do the exact same things. God gives gifts according the willingness of the individual. Those that are not willing, they are taken away.

Elijah learned that lesson when he ran away.

Don't believe this nonsense that "God chose me".....

Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And these are not the issue of whether I choose to believe. If justice has any meaning, I must be free to do other than what God wants when it comes to my response to the gospel.

Doug

Oh the Grace He has bestowed upon humanity for God to treat as equals in this. We're not equals but we certain are bestowed the gracious kindness of God toward all humanity.