Why The Trinity is Wrong: Pronouns

[Fred]

What is wrong with me liking another's post - even if we gave different answers to a question?

Nothing is wrong with it, but I do enjoy that you came up with the opposite response.

Sometimes I fall for a trick question.

Nothing tricky about it. I wrote the following in post 54:

According to Jude 4 the only Master (despotēs) that applies to each Christian is the Lord Jesus (Jude 4).

Do you agree?



It is only "tricky" for those who deny the Lord Jesus is God because any answer they give would show the inconsistency of holding to Unitarianism - this is seen below.

He did not.

His response makes what Jude 4 is teaching a lie.

 

[Wrangler]

Nothing is wrong with it, but I do enjoy that you came up with the opposite response.

As I said, sometimes I fall for trick questions.

 

[Fred]

As I said, sometimes I fall for trick questions.

A question that refutes Unitarian heresy = a trick question for you.

Got it.

 

[Wrangler]

According to Jude 4 the only

Sad that you expect those you know disagree to agree with your premises.

His response makes what Jude 4 is teaching a lie.

Ditto.

 

[Fred]

Sad that you expect those you know disagree to agree with your premises.

The Greek word for "only" is monos...and it means "only".

Get a clue.

 

[101G]

The Creator of the universe is referred throughout Scripture over 5,000 times using singular pronouns, e.g., he, him, me, I. Trinitarians suppose all this should be subordinated to a verse or 2 where who God is talking to is ambiguous. For God so loved that world that he (singular) gave his (singular) only son.

A synonym for God is "father," such as Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. "Father" is a relational word that refers to a single individual and not a plurality. Although not a pronoun, "father" serves as a substitute for a singular being. Whereas there is a verse or 2 where God uses plural pronouns, there is not one single verse where God is referred to as the parents of Jesus. Yet, this has no significance for trinitarian dogma.

haven't read all the Posts and addressing the OP only. you said, "A synonym for God is "father," ....Father" is a relational word that refers to a single individual and not a plurality". TRUE and HEAD is synonym for "Father", which the Lord Jesus is, and "GOD", Colossians 1:18 "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." let's break this ONE VERSE down.
1. not only HEAD is synonym for Father, the word beginning also..... Uh O!
2. and "preeminence" here means "FIRST" which is synonym with HEAD, and Father.... Uh O again.

"preeminence": G4409 πρωτεύω proteuo (prō-tev'-ō) v.
to be first (in rank or influence).
[from G4413]
KJV: have the preeminence
Root(s): G4413

all these synonym words can be found here at https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/head.html#C0-2
what's another word for "HEAD", when used as a Noun, "The source of a river or stream".

and preeminence using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments

101G.

 

[Wrangler]

2. and "preeminence" here means "FIRST"

I think this is one example of trinitarians attempting to change word meanings to suit their doctrine. According to https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/preeminence, preeminence does not mean first in any way. It only has one meaning, superioritiy.

Ergo, God is superior to Jesus - just as Jesus had said.

 

[synergy]

A piece of information you don't know about-since I know you haven't listen to the video clips.
The Triune God did not began with the Church fathers or with Christianity-it was well known among the ancient rabbis-think East, read rabbinical sources and then make up your mind.
But I am not here to force you to believe what I believe to be true.

Isa 9:6 (5) For unto us a yeled is born, unto us ben is given; and the misrah (dominion) shall be upon his shoulder; and Shmo shall be called Peleh (Wonderful), Yoetz (Counsellor), El Gibbor (Mighty G-d), Avi Ad (Everlasting Father), Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace).

Who is Jesus to you? Just a Man? Created?


Shalom
Johann

I am in the process of going back into history and investigating the theological origins of the Word of God and the Trinity in the OT. You submitted a wealth of information about that throughout different threads by consulting various versions of the OT such as Targum. My OT preference is the LXX but I'm willing to look into non-Masoretic OT's like LXX and Targum in order to get to the unaltered truth of the OT word of God. Is there a way to organize all that information in a way that a Western-educated (Anglo/Greco/Roman) person like myself can learn from scratch all that you wrote? Have you thought about producing a book?

CC: @civic

 

[Johann]

I am in the process of going back into history and investigating the theological origins of the Word of God and the Trinity in the OT. You submitted a wealth of information about that throughout different threads by consulting various versions of the OT such as Targum. My OT preference is the LXX but I'm willing to look into non-Masoretic OT's like LXX and Targum in order to get to the unaltered truth of the word of God. Is there a way to organize all that information in a way that a Western person like myself can learn from scratch all that you wrote? Have you thought about producing a book?

CC: @civic

I have a wealth of ancient rabbinical writings scattered on my computer brother and in the process of getting it sorted up into the appropriate files-it is going to take some time.
As to your question should I write a book? No @synergy as most here are not interested in these writings, Jewish customs and cultures etc.
Most don't open the links I provide and I notice some of my posts are being edited saying: No personal remarks to another member-so I am a bit perplexed since if "Do your homework" is considered a personal remark I don't know what is going to happen next.
Guess this will also be edited @synergy.
Shalom to you and family.
J.

 

[civic]

I have a wealth of ancient rabbinical writings scattered on my computer brother and in the process of getting it sorted up into the appropriate files-it is going to take some time.
As to your question should I write a book? No @synergy as most here are not interested in these writings, Jewish customs and cultures etc.
Most don't open the links I provide and I notice some of my posts are being edited saying: No personal remarks to another member-so I am a bit perplexed since if "Do your homework" is considered a personal remark I don't know what is going to happen next.
Guess this will also be edited @synergy.
Shalom to you and family.
J.

Don't feel bad my longer posts in threads I start do not get read by most. Its not the crowds we should be focusing on ( the 99 ) but the ( 1 ).

So if just one person reads and is interested then all is good. But even if we do not have anyone who seems interested some are here to plant seeds, others water, still others receive the harvest. It all plays an important part with in Gods tapestry. The toe is needed in the body just as much as the hands, feet, mind, skin, bones etc.......

 

[synergy]

I have a wealth of ancient rabbinical writings scattered on my computer brother and in the process of getting it sorted up into the appropriate files-it is going to take some time.
As to your question should I write a book? No @synergy as most here are not interested in these writings, Jewish customs and cultures etc.

From what you wrote about the Targum text, I believe that it would go a long way in further connecting the OT and NT as what the LXX does right now. I might be dreaming but I think that there is a definite market for that.

Most don't open the links I provide and I notice some of my posts are being edited saying: No personal remarks to another member-so I am a bit perplexed since if "Do your homework" is considered a personal remark I don't know what is going to happen next.
Guess this will also be edited @synergy.
Shalom to you and family.
J.

Keep the faith! I see great value in what you know. I'm personally gathering your stuff together but I can only understand so much. I can send you what I gather from your sources and other sources, time permitting, and maybe you can guide me? Any which way you want to go with this is fine with me.

CC: @civic

 

[Johann]

From what you wrote about the Targum text, I believe that it would go a long way in further connecting the OT and NT as what the LXX does right now. I might be dreaming but I think that there is a definite market for that.

Keep the faith! I see great value in what you know. I'm personally gathering your stuff together but I can only understand so much. I can send you what I gather from your sources and other sources, time permitting, and maybe you can guide me? Any which way you want to go with this is fine with me.

CC: @civic

What rabbinical sources are you looking for? On the Two Powers?
Yes, please send whatever sources you have-as I have said-busy putting all my Jewish sources in the correct files on my computer-data I have researched when I was married and even BEFORE I was married to my dear, precious wife.
Johann.

 

[Wrangler]

Don't feel bad my longer posts in threads

It’s so funny how threads tend to meander. This one was simply about the 1,000’s of singular pronouns used to describe YHWH - and by YHWH. Somehow that leads into excessively long posts that few read.

 

[synergy]

What rabbinical sources are you looking for? On the Two Powers?

I would prefer the Targum as it parallels in many ways the LXX. I would prefer to concentrate on OT writings, including the Apocrypha. The Apocrypha are part of the LXX cannon, from which the Apostles quoted from, and as such should be recognized. Writings outside of the OT & NT cannon are extremely hard to "sell" in the West because we have a sour taste of them, especially from Mormon, SDA, and historical Catholic sources. The only advice I can give you is Western (Anglo/Greco/Roman) advice.

So whatever the Targum promotes, be it Two Powers, the Word of God, and even the Trinity (as I believe you mentioned earlier), then I would like to start with that. There might be other topics that we can connect the Targum/LXX to the NT but let's start with those three topics first.

Yes, please send whatever sources you have-as I have said-busy putting all my Jewish sources in the correct files on my computer-data I have researched when I was married and even BEFORE I was married to my dear, precious wife.
Johann.

Thanks! Will do. I'll create a high level (table of contents) draft and send that to you soon, time permitting.
All the best to you and to your family.

CC: @civic

 

[Johann]

I would prefer the Targum as it parallels in many ways the LXX. I would prefer to concentrate on OT writings, including the Apocrypha. The Apocrypha are part of the LXX cannon, from which the Apostles quoted from, and as such should be recognized. Writings outside of the OT & NT cannon are extremely hard to "sell" in the West because we have a sour taste of them, especially from Mormon, SDA, and historical Catholic sources. The only advice I can give you is Western (Anglo/Greco/Roman) advice.

So whatever the Targum promotes, be it Two Powers, the Word of God, and even the Trinity (as I believe you mentioned earlier), then I would like to start with that. There might be other topics that we can connect the Targum/LXX to the NT but let's start with those three topics first.

Thanks! Will do. I'll create a high level (table of contents) draft and send that to you soon, time permitting.
All the best to you and to your family.

CC: @civic

Give it a few days-I am edited

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/muhammad-is-not-equal-to-jesus-but-jesus-is-equal-to-allah.828/--

edited

later
Johann.

 

[civic]

Give it a few days-I am edited

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/muhammad-is-not-equal-to-jesus-but-jesus-is-equal-to-allah.828/--

edited

later
Johann.

Brother he would really like your help. Please use your God given gift and bless him with it. I’m trying to encourage you my friend.

 

[Johann]

Brother he would really like your help. Please use your God given gift and bless him with it. I’m trying to encourage you my friend.

Who would like my help brother? Almost all my posts are being edited and/or deleted and I am calm-

 

[civic]

Who would like my help brother? Almost all my posts are being edited and/or deleted and I am calm-

@synergy does with the LXX , Targum and Apocryphal books.

See here as this is your area of expertise not mine for sure lol.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/why-the-trinity-is-wrong-pronouns.203/page-8#post-25884

 

[synergy]

I would prefer the Targum as it parallels in many ways the LXX. I would prefer to concentrate on OT writings, including the Apocrypha. The Apocrypha are part of the LXX cannon, from which the Apostles quoted from, and as such should be recognized. Writings outside of the OT & NT cannon are extremely hard to "sell" in the West because we have a sour taste of them, especially from Mormon, SDA, and historical Catholic sources. The only advice I can give you is Western (Anglo/Greco/Roman) advice.

So whatever the Targum promotes, be it Two Powers, the Word of God, and even the Trinity (as I believe you mentioned earlier), then I would like to start with that. There might be other topics that we can connect the Targum/LXX to the NT but let's start with those three topics first.

Thanks! Will do. I'll create a high level (table of contents) draft and send that to you soon, time permitting.
All the best to you and to your family.

CC: @civic

I hope all is well with you. Here is my outline. I'm limited in # of links so I only presented the topics. Everyone has his presentation style and I have mine so forgive me wherever I am not clear. Tell me what you think. Maybe we can expand the topics into more areas for the purposes of remedying controversies.

Introduction
Preservation of OT Text in LXX

Inclusion of Apocrypha (Apostolic Sanctioned)​

Preservation of OT Text in Targum

Origin of phrase “Word of God” in Targum Text​

• Aramaic Memra (Hebrew: Debar)
• Targum of Jerusalem dated between 4th and 12 century (Gen 1:1)
• Targum of Neofiti dated between 1st-4th century (Gen 1:3)
• Targum of Jonathan states that Abraham’s faith was in the Lord and his Memra.
• “Christian theology, far from “gradually draw[ing] away from Judaic tendencies,” actually maintained a more conservative Judaic approach to the doctrine of God than did the Rabbis, and that it is they — if anyone — who drew away from earlier Jewish theology.” (Daniel Boyarin, Border Lines, p92)
• Associated with the Angel of the LORD, or the Metatron (the highest messenger of God in rabbinic angelology)
• Memra Personifications in Targum (Gen 1:3-5; 2:2; 3:8; 9:12; 15:6; 17:2 (Justification by Faith))
• More Targum Verses

The Greek (Hellenized Jewish Diaspora - Berean) Concept of Logos​

John Prologue (John 1)​

Parallel with Wis 9:1 (LXX)​

Link between Wis 18:14-16 (LXX) and Rev 19:11-16.​

Jesus' “I Am” Declaration​

Origin of word “Trinity” in LXX/Targum

Trinity in OT?​

Monotheism in OT?​

"Two Powers of God"​

Theophanies/Angel of God​

• Genesis 16:7-13; 22:11-15; 31:11,13; 48:15-16
• Exodus 3:2,4; 13:21; 14:19
• Judges 2:1; 6:22-23; 13:3-22
• Zechariah 3:1-2

 

[synergy]

Give it a few days-I am edited

No problem. Take your time. I appreciate anything advise you can give.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/muhammad-is-not-equal-to-jesus-but-jesus-is-equal-to-allah.828/--

edited

later
Johann.

It's my view that Muhammad matches with Mary. From both of them came their respective Word of God and they both had a form of purity. Muhammad's "purity" was that he was illiterate so it was not possible for him to corrupt his "words of God" with any of his own writings.