Why The Trinity is Wrong: Pronouns
- Thread starter Wrangler
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Johann
Well-known member
Hmm-yes-I don't hold to your opinion-no offense.
The Ruach is not the mother of YHVH.
Make sense?
e v e
Well-known member
it makes sense that you and i understand God differently.
I understand that all His attributes express His nature and have His signature.
Johann
Well-known member
something you might have missed-
Paraklētos (“Paraclete, Advocate”) is Masculine
John is the only biblical author to refer to the Holy Spirit as the paraklētos: the Paraclete, Advocate, or Counsellor. John uses the Greek word paraklētos four times in his Gospel, in John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26 and 16:7, always in reference to the Holy Spirit.
Paraklētos is a grammatically masculine word and any pronouns, articles, adjectives and participles directly associated with it will be masculine. We see this principle of grammatical “agreement” demonstrated in John 14–16.
Παράκλητον
Transliteration: Paraklēton
Morphology: N-AMS
Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's no.: G3875 (παράκλητος)
Meaning: (a) an advocate, intercessor, (b) a consoler, comforter, helper, (c) Paraclete.
Still is "She?"
The Paraclete is the Spirit of Truth
The Paraclete (paraklētos) is the main subject of John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26 and 16:7, and also of John 16:13–14. In three of these verses, John adds a phrase that contains the neuter word pneuma (“spirit”) to spell out who the Paraclete is. It is this additional phrase that seems to have led to some confusion about grammatical gender.
In John 14:26, the Paraclete is “the Holy Spirit who the Father will send in [Jesus’s] name.”
In John 15:26, the Paraclete is “the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father.”
In John 16:13, the Paraclete is “the Spirit of truth.”
At the risk of sounding repetitious, paraklētos is grammatically masculine, and pronouns referring to the Paraclete are grammatically masculine in these verses. Pronouns that refer to the Spirit (pneuma) are neuter, such as the neuter relative pronoun behind the word “who” (Greek: ὅ) in John 14:26 and 15:26.
Grammar rules regarding gender have not been broken in John’s Gospel. Pronouns that should be neuter are neuter; they have not been masculinised.
Let’s look more closely at the relevant passages.
The Paraclete and Pronouns in John 14:26
“But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit who the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”
ὁ δὲ παράκλητος, τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον ὃ πέμψει ὁ πατὴρ ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου, ἐκεῖνος ὑμᾶς διδάξει πάντα καὶ ὑπομνήσει ὑμᾶς πάντα ἃ εἶπον ὑμῖν.
This verse contains the masculine pronoun ekeinos, translated into English here as “he.”
(It is a demonstrative pronoun, but John uses it many times without a demonstrative force.)
Ekeinos grammatically agrees with the paraklētos.
The neuter relative pronoun ὃ (“who”) grammatically agrees with pneuma. This is all fine.
The Paraclete and Pronouns in John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.”
Ὅταν ἔλθῃ ὁ παράκλητος ὃν ἐγὼ πέμψω ὑμῖν παρὰ τοῦ πατρός, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας ὃ παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκπορεύεται, ἐκεῖνος μαρτυρήσει περὶ ἐμοῦ·
As in John 14:26, we have the masculine pronoun ekeinos (“he”) agreeing with paraklētos.[3]
There is the masculine relative pronoun ὃν (“whom”) referring to the Paraclete.
And there is the neuter relative pronoun ὃ (“who”) agreeing with pneuma.
The Paraclete and Pronouns in John 16
The same principles apply in John 16 but are perhaps a bit more difficult to recognise, especially when we focus on one or two verses rather than reading the whole chapter.
The word paraklētos occurs once in John 16, in verse 7. John then uses the pronoun ekeinos to refer to the Paraclete in John 16:8, 13, and 14.
John 16:7b–8: “Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he [no Greek pronoun] he will convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment;”
John 16:7b-8: ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ ἀπέλθω, ὁ παράκλητος οὐ μὴ ἔλθῃ πρὸς ὑμᾶς· ἐὰν δὲ πορευθῶ, πέμψω αὐτὸν (masculine personal pronoun) πρὸς ὑμᾶς. καὶ ἐλθὼν ἐκεῖνος ἐλέγξει τὸν κόσμον περὶ ἁμαρτίας καὶ περὶ δικαιοσύνης καὶ περὶ κρίσεως·
. . .
John 16:13–14: “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak from himself; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.”
(The “he’s” that I haven’t made bold in vs. 13–14 do not have a corresponding pronoun in the Greek text. The idea of “he” is implicit in the Greek verbs for “guide,” “speak, “hear,” etc. Verbs do not have grammatical gender in ancient Greek.)
John 16:13-14: ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ πάσῃ, οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφ’ ἑαυτοῦ (masculine reflexive pronoun), ἀλλ’ ὅσα ἀκούσει λαλήσει, καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν. ἐκεῖνος ἐμὲ δοξάσει, ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ ἐμοῦ λήμψεται καὶ ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν.
I suspect John 16:13–14 are the verses that have tripped up some people because they do not contain the word paraklētos. The masculine pronouns in these two verses refer back to, i.e. their antecedent is, paraklētos in John 16:7. There’s nothing unusual here about the gender of the pronouns.[4]
Conclusion
Throughout John’s Gospel, grammatically neuter words are used to “agree” with pneuma (“spirit”), a neuter word (John 1:32–33; 3:5–8, 34; 4:23–24; 6:63; 7:38–39; etc). And grammatically masculine words are used to “agree” with paraklētos (“advocate”), a masculine word.
The grammatical gender used in the Greek text of John chapters 14–16 is in keeping with grammar norms. No grammar laws have been broken with the aim of masculinising or personalising neuter words. There is no masculinising of the Holy Spirit in the Greek text of John’s Gospel.
Footnotes
[1] Some suggest that masculine pronouns are used in a few verses of the Greek New Testament to make the Holy Spirit seem more personal. As well as the verses about the Paraclete in John, other verses used in this personalisation argument are Ephesians 1:14, which contains the masculine noun arrabōn (“pledge, guarantee”), the enigmatic 2 Thessalonians 2:6–7, and 1 John 5:7 KJV. The use of grammatical gender in the personalisation argument does not hold water.
[2] Grammatical gender tells us nothing about the gender of the Holy Spirit. The word for “spirit, breath, wind” in the Hebrew Bible (ruach) is a grammatically feminine noun. The word for “spirit, breath, wind” in the Greek New Testament and Septuagint (pneuma) is neuter. The Greek word paraklētos used in John’s Gospel is masculine. In early Latin and Coptic translations of the Bible, spiritus (Latin) and pepneuma: ⲡⲉⲡⲛⲉⲩⲙⲁ (Coptic) are also grammatically masculine.
[3] Referring to John 15:26 and 16:13–14 in particular, Daniel B. Wallace explains,
… pneuma is appositional to a masculine noun. The gender of ekeinos, thus has nothing to do with the natural gender of pneuma. The antecedent of ekeinos in each case is paraklētos, not pneuma. … The ekeinos [of 16:13–14] reaches back to v. 7 where paraklētos is mentioned. Thus, since paraklētos is masculine, so is the pronoun.
Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of New Testament Greek (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996), 331–332. (Wallace uses Greek letters which I’ve changed to Latin letters for my readers.)
But-don't take my word for it-study it yourself.
If I give the link-it would be edited.
Johann.
civic
Well-known member
one link per post is allowed in the rules.
Johann
Well-known member
Thanks brother.
e v e
Well-known member
i have studied.
If you understand the concept of an attribute of Him, then paraclete being masculine is fine of course.
hebrew has no neuter.
Johann
Well-known member
I concur-Ruach is Feminine in the Tanack-attributive-still doesn't define Him as a female. Agree?
e v e
Well-known member
I can read your post further to see if a reference escaped me they i need to study, but 1 sentence of a text takes hours to study.. as you know.
and I have done that.
I am fine with that God has feminine and masculine attributes and we are in their image and are His, as in our one God's, children.
I don't need aristotle's substance ideas, gotten by augustine and aquinas from islamicist averroes.
and I have done that.
I am fine with that God has feminine and masculine attributes and we are in their image and are His, as in our one God's, children.
I don't need aristotle's substance ideas, gotten by augustine and aquinas from islamicist averroes.
e v e
Well-known member
He is male. He has His spirit as attribute and His son as attribute, of Him, and we are in the image thereof.
They are beings - in the sense of having His nature and not a mode. And as attributes, His hands, each expresses different aspects of Him.
e v e
Well-known member
Male and female, us in eden, were made on the archetype of female as inside and core of male and His heart and comfort. In His image. And make as ruling female, with love of course. Speech is executive and male is (represents) speech, whereas the word is a receptive feminine attribute -- spoken.
e v e
Well-known member
I never said He is female. I was speaking of His spirit.
Johann
Well-known member
I have just shown you the Holy Spirit is not a "she or an it"
charismaticlady
Active member
That wasn't my whole answer. My answer was clear. ONE PERSON. Don't play the con man
Johann
Well-known member
In the Bible, God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ, are both addressed as male. What about the Holy Spirit? Often, people refer to the Holy Spirit as an "it," yet Scripture refers to the Holy Spirit as a male, just as it does for the Father and the Son. Some critics point out that the Greek word for "spirit," pneuma, is neuter (not gender specific) or that the Hebrew Old Testament word for "spirit," ruach, is used as feminine in Genesis 1:2. However, the gender of a word in Hebrew or Greek does not specifically indicate the gender identity of what the word identifies. As an example, in English, we often refer to a boat or a nice car as a "she" (as in "ain't she a beauty?"). However, the boat itself is not female.
Further, the Holy Spirit is referred to as a person, not an impersonal force. The Holy Spirit has insight (1 Corinthians 2:10-11), knowledge (Romans 8:27), and a will (1 Corinthians 12:11). The Holy Spirit also performs many actions only a person can accomplish, including convicting people of sin (John 16:8), doing miracles (Acts 8:39), and guiding humans (John 16:13).
Actions can also be directed toward the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can be lied to (Acts 5:3), resisted (Acts 7:51), grieved (Ephesians 4:30), blasphemed (Matthew 12:31), and insulted (Hebrews 10:29).
But is the Holy Spirit male, female, or neuter? From a grammatical standpoint, the words used to refer to the Holy Spirit are consistently masculine. Theologically speaking, we must remember that God is not human and therefore does not fit within our definitions of male or female. It is appropriate to speak of the Holy Spirit in male terms as Scripture does, but we must understand that God is wholly other and does not exist in the same form as we do (with the exception of Jesus as God in human form).
In summary, the Bible uses masculine terms to refer to the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is a "He," not an "it" or a "she." However, God is Spirit and exists in a form that defies male/female categories. There is no justification for belief in a female member of the Trinity.
Joh 14:16 ΚἀγὼG2504|P-1NS-K|And I ἐρωτήσωG2065|G5692|V-FAI-1S|will ask τὸνG3588|T-ASM|the ΠατέραG3962|N-ASM|Father, καὶG2532|CONJ|and ἄλλονG243|A-ASM|another ΠαράκλητονG3875|N-ASM|Helper δώσειG1325|G5692|V-FAI-3S|He will give ὑμῖνG4771|P-2DP|you, ἵναG2443|CONJ|that μεθ᾽G3326|PREP|with ὑμῶνG4771|P-2GP|you εἰςG1519|PREP|to τὸνG3588|T-ASM|the αἰῶναG165|N-ASM|age, ᾖG1510|G5725|V-PAS-3S|He may be
Transliteration: Paraklēton
Morphology: N-AMS
Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's no.: G3875 (παράκλητος)
Meaning: (a) an advocate, intercessor, (b) a consoler, comforter, helper, (c) Paraclete.
One example that the Holy Spirit is Masculine in the NT.
e v e
Well-known member
augustine felt the only use for female
was as a breeder of this type fallen fleshbody,
not as a real companion or help to male.
even said a male would be a better helper for male!
augustine equated female to sin nature
and male he equated to nous,
the greek God of reason, male which
he viewed as in God's image.
female was just an unavoidable
thing to put up with.
he is wrong, though in a fallen sense
where everything is such a mess
and male is empty, the sexes are not ideal
as they were in eden... by a mile.
please tell me what the female
is in the image of?
where is the female of 'in our image'.
or is that relegated to simply allegory...
just to throw it in as some nuisance item.
Where does feminine come from if not Him?
just to add, no, I don't believe he created
this earth, or type of body we have.
this mess resulted from adam's disobedience...
that we have the limited 5 dumb senses
that we do and are in fleshbodies that die.
was as a breeder of this type fallen fleshbody,
not as a real companion or help to male.
even said a male would be a better helper for male!
augustine equated female to sin nature
and male he equated to nous,
the greek God of reason, male which
he viewed as in God's image.
female was just an unavoidable
thing to put up with.
he is wrong, though in a fallen sense
where everything is such a mess
and male is empty, the sexes are not ideal
as they were in eden... by a mile.
please tell me what the female
is in the image of?
where is the female of 'in our image'.
or is that relegated to simply allegory...
just to throw it in as some nuisance item.
Where does feminine come from if not Him?
just to add, no, I don't believe he created
this earth, or type of body we have.
this mess resulted from adam's disobedience...
that we have the limited 5 dumb senses
that we do and are in fleshbodies that die.
e v e
Well-known member
i meant male. if a mod can still edit, thank you.
Johann
Well-known member
Doesn't make sense to me at all.
J.
You answered "Yes" and the other person who denies Jesus is God said "No"
- and yet you clicked that you liked his post.
Classic.
Wrangler
Well-known member
What is wrong with me liking another's post - even if we gave different answers to a question?
Sometimes I fall for a trick question. He did not.
