sethproton
Active member
God creates language as well as communicating to humans.
He is a God of order in all things.
Genesis begins it's first mention of God in the plural.
Why The Trinity is Wrong: Pronouns
- Thread starter Wrangler
- Start date
He is a God of order in all things.
Genesis begins it's first mention of God in the plural.
charismaticlady
Active member
I can answer that by asking the same question. How many people is 1 Thess. 5:23 talking about?
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
What may confuse you is the fact that the Word John 1:1 had to separate himself to become flesh in order to be mortal and die for us. Now we have a tendency to start counting when there is still only ONE.
"God the Father" is the MIND of Jesus Christ. It is still one God and equal. Again they are inseparable.
Spirit - Father - Mind
Soul - Holy Spirit - Heart/Conscience where the laws are written
Body - Jesus - Embodies the other two. The three are one.
sethproton
Active member
in your Titus reference it says, "who gave HIMSELF" singular
Not 2, not who gave THEMSELVES - plural
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Johann
Well-known member
I really apologize for giving you a headache re my long posts moderator-but thanks for the editing.Granville Sharp's rule
Granville Sharp's Rule is a grammatical principle applied to the translation of New Testament Greek whereby the deity of Christ is explicitly affirmed. This is specifically associated with the translation of Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1.
Titus 2:13:
KJV -- "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."
Similarly in the 1901 ASV, RSV, and also in the New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
NASB -- "Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." The same sense is also seen in NIV and ESV.
In the above translations, the first implies a reference to two persons, while the second (applying the Granville Sharp rule) sees the reference to one person who is both God and savior. The same contrast may be seen in 2 Peter 1:1:
KJV -- "to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."
NASB -- "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
Statement of the rule
"The following rule by Granville Sharp of a century back still proves to be true: `When the copulative KAI connects two nouns of the same case, if the article HO or any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle; i.e., it denotes a further description of the first-named person.'" (A Manual Of The Greek New Testament, Dana & Mantey, p. 147)
"Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person." - James White
The basic formula (in the Greek word order) may be seen in this manner:
Article (ho) + noun1 + and (kai) + noun2
Granville Sharp's rule says that since the definite article (ho, or its variant) precedes only the first noun and not both, then the reference is to one person -- this being the case in the verses quoted above.
Cautions in application
Detractors maintain that there are numerous examples in the Greek where Granville Sharp's rule fails to hold up, i.e. where two distinct referents are obviously intended. However, as pointed out by Daniel Wallace, this is due to a misapplication of the rule.^ [1]^ What is often overlooked is that Granville Sharp distinctly noted that the rule applies when the two nouns are singular and apply to persons, not things. When these restrictions are considered, there are no exceptions to be noted in native Koine Greek constructions.
Wallace has restated Granville Sharp's rule in order to explicitly state all the restrictions and to enhance the readability of the rule.
In native Greek constructions (i.e., not translation Greek), when a single article modifies two substantives connected by kai (thus, article-substantive- kai-substantive), when both substantives are (1) singular (both grammatically and semantically), (2) personal, (3) and common nouns (not proper names or ordinals), they have the same referent.
Notes
? Daniel B. Wallace, Sharp Redivivus? A Reexamination of the Granville Sharp Rule
? Daniel B. Wallace, The Article with Multiple Substantives Connected by kai in the New Testament: Semantics and Significance (Ph.D. diss., Dallas Theological Seminary), 134-35.
Titus 2:13 Commentary | Precept Austin
www.preceptaustin.org
You will go through great lengths to debunk the Deity of Christ Jesus-making your appeal to Islamic sources-but hey-this is "permissible" this is your "opinion" and this gives you the right to "wrangle" the Holy Writ.
No need to reply.
J.
Johann.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Woah! Why sweep what I wrote aside? Why sweep aside my question?
e v e
Well-known member
e v e
Well-known member
the man in the website at his about pageGranville Sharp's rule
Granville Sharp's Rule is a grammatical principle applied to the translation of New Testament Greek whereby the deity of Christ is explicitly affirmed. This is specifically associated with the translation of Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1.
Titus 2:13:
KJV -- "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."
Similarly in the 1901 ASV, RSV, and also in the New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
NASB -- "Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." The same sense is also seen in NIV and ESV.
In the above translations, the first implies a reference to two persons, while the second (applying the Granville Sharp rule) sees the reference to one person who is both God and savior. The same contrast may be seen in 2 Peter 1:1:
KJV -- "to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."
NASB -- "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
Statement of the rule
"The following rule by Granville Sharp of a century back still proves to be true: `When the copulative KAI connects two nouns of the same case, if the article HO or any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle; i.e., it denotes a further description of the first-named person.'" (A Manual Of The Greek New Testament, Dana & Mantey, p. 147)
"Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person." - James White
The basic formula (in the Greek word order) may be seen in this manner:
Article (ho) + noun1 + and (kai) + noun2
Granville Sharp's rule says that since the definite article (ho, or its variant) precedes only the first noun and not both, then the reference is to one person -- this being the case in the verses quoted above.
Cautions in application
Detractors maintain that there are numerous examples in the Greek where Granville Sharp's rule fails to hold up, i.e. where two distinct referents are obviously intended. However, as pointed out by Daniel Wallace, this is due to a misapplication of the rule.^ [1]^ What is often overlooked is that Granville Sharp distinctly noted that the rule applies when the two nouns are singular and apply to persons, not things. When these restrictions are considered, there are no exceptions to be noted in native Koine Greek constructions.
Wallace has restated Granville Sharp's rule in order to explicitly state all the restrictions and to enhance the readability of the rule.
In native Greek constructions (i.e., not translation Greek), when a single article modifies two substantives connected by kai (thus, article-substantive- kai-substantive), when both substantives are (1) singular (both grammatically and semantically), (2) personal, (3) and common nouns (not proper names or ordinals), they have the same referent.
Notes
? Daniel B. Wallace, Sharp Redivivus? A Reexamination of the Granville Sharp Rule
? Daniel B. Wallace, The Article with Multiple Substantives Connected by kai in the New Testament: Semantics and Significance (Ph.D. diss., Dallas Theological Seminary), 134-35.
Titus 2:13 Commentary | Precept Austin
You will go through great lengths to debunk the Deity of Christ Jesus-making your appeal to Islamic sources-but hey-this is "permissible" this is your "opinion" and this gives you the right to "wrangle" the Holy Writ.
No need to reply.
J.
on the site of your link
where he explained his journey
seems to be trying to meet Him
next would be to leave everything
of this world behind
e v e
Well-known member
there is no contradiction
that Christ is deity
He is so very lovely sweet
His heart and core.
speech is masculine,
and the word is a feminine being.
Christ and His spirit are as hands of God
that Christ is deity
He is so very lovely sweet
the Word is His feminine Spirit..
His heart and core.
speech is masculine,
and the word is a feminine being.
Christ and His spirit are as hands of God
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civic
Well-known member
Ditto !Granville Sharp's rule
Granville Sharp's Rule is a grammatical principle applied to the translation of New Testament Greek whereby the deity of Christ is explicitly affirmed. This is specifically associated with the translation of Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1.
Titus 2:13:
KJV -- "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."
Similarly in the 1901 ASV, RSV, and also in the New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
NASB -- "Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." The same sense is also seen in NIV and ESV.
In the above translations, the first implies a reference to two persons, while the second (applying the Granville Sharp rule) sees the reference to one person who is both God and savior. The same contrast may be seen in 2 Peter 1:1:
KJV -- "to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."
NASB -- "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
Statement of the rule
"The following rule by Granville Sharp of a century back still proves to be true: `When the copulative KAI connects two nouns of the same case, if the article HO or any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle; i.e., it denotes a further description of the first-named person.'" (A Manual Of The Greek New Testament, Dana & Mantey, p. 147)
"Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person." - James White
The basic formula (in the Greek word order) may be seen in this manner:
Article (ho) + noun1 + and (kai) + noun2
Granville Sharp's rule says that since the definite article (ho, or its variant) precedes only the first noun and not both, then the reference is to one person -- this being the case in the verses quoted above.
Cautions in application
Detractors maintain that there are numerous examples in the Greek where Granville Sharp's rule fails to hold up, i.e. where two distinct referents are obviously intended. However, as pointed out by Daniel Wallace, this is due to a misapplication of the rule.^ [1]^ What is often overlooked is that Granville Sharp distinctly noted that the rule applies when the two nouns are singular and apply to persons, not things. When these restrictions are considered, there are no exceptions to be noted in native Koine Greek constructions.
Wallace has restated Granville Sharp's rule in order to explicitly state all the restrictions and to enhance the readability of the rule.
In native Greek constructions (i.e., not translation Greek), when a single article modifies two substantives connected by kai (thus, article-substantive- kai-substantive), when both substantives are (1) singular (both grammatically and semantically), (2) personal, (3) and common nouns (not proper names or ordinals), they have the same referent.
Notes
? Daniel B. Wallace, Sharp Redivivus? A Reexamination of the Granville Sharp Rule
? Daniel B. Wallace, The Article with Multiple Substantives Connected by kai in the New Testament: Semantics and Significance (Ph.D. diss., Dallas Theological Seminary), 134-35.
Titus 2:13 Commentary | Precept Austin
You will go through great lengths to debunk the Deity of Christ Jesus-making your appeal to Islamic sources-but hey-this is "permissible" this is your "opinion" and this gives you the right to "wrangle" the Holy Writ.
No need to reply.
J.
Johann
Well-known member
SO what does this mean? The Ruach HaKodesh is female?
J.
e v e
Well-known member
yes
His souls in paradise were made in their image
male and female
in the glorious body made by Him
which we lost
all His sons and daughters are His family
Johann
Well-known member
That was your opinion-which is your right and you are entitled to believe this-I want to see if others here are able to "correct" your opinion-since if I should do the correction it will be misconstrued.
e v e
Well-known member
also...
there is much confusion about parts...
such that the pagan tripartite soul idea is now common..
in pagan theology of the Greek
there is a neuter type soul
psuche and other neuter terms
which is a function of their consciousness
and thinking... as pagans..
and which caused poor translations
because the soul in greek has
no body ... they knew nothing of paradise
and only knew about the flesh type of this earth...
they did not understand npsh, which in hebrew is soul and body... with no distinction...
one being is what each of us were before the fall
and each of us was not a neuter...
but after the fall and the corruption
now we see the body and soul
are not one term as in hebrew...
the greeks only knew the fallen situation.
His souls were created in a glorious body
made by Him npsh
all His souls male and female stepped right out of Him
into His paradise when He spoke His Word
there is much confusion about parts...
such that the pagan tripartite soul idea is now common..
in pagan theology of the Greek
there is a neuter type soul
psuche and other neuter terms
which is a function of their consciousness
and thinking... as pagans..
and which caused poor translations
because the soul in greek has
no body ... they knew nothing of paradise
and only knew about the flesh type of this earth...
they did not understand npsh, which in hebrew is soul and body... with no distinction...
one being is what each of us were before the fall
and each of us was not a neuter...
but after the fall and the corruption
now we see the body and soul
are not one term as in hebrew...
the greeks only knew the fallen situation.
His souls were created in a glorious body
made by Him npsh
all His souls male and female stepped right out of Him
into His paradise when He spoke His Word
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e v e
Well-known member
i dont mind if others object
but only He will correct me.
Thank you for understanding that.
Johann
Well-known member
Heard a fascinating piece of bad exegesis the other day. The Holy Spirit is a she.
The basis of this claim was that the Hebrew word for “spirit” (ruach) is feminine. The short answer is that if this is true, then the Spirit is also an “it” since the Greek word for “spirit” (πνευμα) is neuter.
The longer answer is that Hebrew and Greek words follow what is called “grammatical gender.” This means that the gender of the word is not determined by its meaning but by other things. For example, all nouns ending in ματ are neuter. Since πνευμα is from the root πνευματ, it is therefore neuter. But that says nothing about how the Greek understood of the concept of God’s Spirit.
The best illustration of this is the Greek words for “sin” and “sinner.” “Sin” is a feminine noun, αμαρτια, but sin is not a feminine trait (as opposed to men). “Sinner” is a masculine noun, αμαρτωλος, but that does not mean that men (not using the word generically) are sinners (as opposed to women).
Now yes, sometimes there is a correlation between meaning and gender. Men’s names are masculine. Pronouns referring back to women are feminine. But apart from these obvious types of situations, the gender and meaning of a word are unrelated.
This makes John 16:13 interesting. “When the Spirit of truth (το πνευμα της αληθειας) comes, he (εκεινος) will guide you into all the truth.” The masculine εκεινος ges back to the masculine “Helper” of v 7 (παρακλητος). But is it not interesting that John can put the neuter πνευμα in apposition to the masculine εκεινος? Why?
Because the Bible teaches that all three members of the godhead are “persons” and that while God is more than the human categories of “masculine” and “feminine,” he is personal. The Holy Spirit is not a “she” or an “it.” He is a “person.” Hebrew and Greek follow grammatical gender.
Bill Mounce.
Can go deeper-but this should suffice.
Johann.
