Wrangler
Well-known member
Who alone is YHWH, who we relate to as Father.
This means Jesus is not God and trinitarians embrace contradictions.
Why The Trinity is Wrong: Juxtaposition
- Thread starter Wrangler
- Start date
This means Jesus is not God and trinitarians embrace contradictions.
Wrangler
Well-known member
There is no ‘and’ in Scripture to there being one God, the Father. 1 COR 8:6
No. To say the words of the Supreme Being have authority, and in that sense, are a god, is not to say a thing (words) are a Being.
You are aware there is more than one sense to the word ‘god,’ correct? See 1 Cor 8:5
Doug Brents
Well-known member
In order to come to that conclusion, you must ignore (or twist) many Scriptures (which have been posted many times and you fail to address or include them in your replies).
Just as God is a title, so too is Lord. And since Jesus is called God in John 1:1 and Lord in 1 Cor 8:6, that makes the titles equal in the context of the Father and Jesus.
God's words became light, land, water, plants, animals, stars, etc. How much easier is it for Him to make part of Himself into a man?
Who says he is I AM in Exo 3:7?
What does it mean to be I AM?
Is the claim to be I AM in John 8:58 the same as that in Exo 3:7?
Wrangler
Well-known member
The EXACT opposite is true. And I already provided the specific verses that destroy the trinity.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
There are no verses that "destroy" the trinity. You cannot destroy God, and the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are God. We are baptized into Christ Jesus, but in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matt 28:19). All three are equal and all three are God.
Wrangler
Well-known member
The entire Bible, which is monotheist text, destroys the trinity. But just to give you a refresher from the ABC's and 123's of Emily Dispelling the Trinity:
ABC’s (OT)
- Only YHWH is God.
- Deut 6:4 (NOG). Listen, Israel: Yahweh is our Elohim. Yahweh is the only God.
- YHWH is God’s only and eternal name – for all generations.
- Ex 3:15 (NLT). Yahweh, the God of your ancestors—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you. This is my eternal name, my name to remember for all generations.
- 1C, You shall have no other gods but YHWH – including the trinity god.
- Ex 20:3 (NLT) You must not have any other god but me.
123’s (NT)
- All the Gospels proclaim Jesus is God’s Anointed. None claim Jesus is YHWH incarnate.
- Matthew 1:1 (VOICE) This is the family history, the genealogy, of Jesus the Anointed, the coming King.
- Mark 1:1 (VOICE). This is the beginning of the good news of Jesus, the Anointed One, the Liberating King, the Son of God.
- Luke 1:4 I want you to know that you can fully rely on the things you have been taught about Jesus, God’s Anointed One.
- John 20:31 (VOICE). These accounts are recorded so that you, too, might believe that Jesus is the Anointed, the Liberating King, the Son of God, because believing grants you the life He came to share.
- God made Jesus and gave Jesus authority – but not over God, Himself.
- Acts 2:36 (CEV). God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ
- 1 Corinthians 15:27 “God has put all things under his authority.”[a] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.
- Jesus has a God, who we relate to as Father, who is the only true God.
- John 17:1-3 (NLT) Father … And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God.
- John 20:17 ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
- Salvation Depends on Believing God raised Jesus from the dead.
- Roman 10:9 (Not "the Father" but God.) If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
- The resurrected Jesus, sitting on God’s throne in heaven is STILL not God.
- Rev 1:1 (NLT). This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him.
- Rev 3:12. Jesus invokes his God 4 times in 1 sentence.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
The Trinity is monotheist. The three are ONE God.
YHWH includes the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) and Jesus.
Yes, while Jesus was a man, He was lower than the Father, and as such He called the Father God. But He was and is still God made flesh. God did not make Jesus. Nothing was created that was not created by Jesus, and He could not create Himself so He is not a created being.
I am sorry that you don't believe in Jesus, but your lack of belief does not change what Scripture says. You must interpret Scripture based on Scripture, and when Scripture makes a clear, direct statement that Jesus is God like "the Word was God" and "the Word became flesh", and elsewhere "the Father and the Son are ONE"; you cannot then interpret other passages so as saying that Jesus is not God.
APAK
Active member
Doug, I have to say you have shown a load of manure and hypocrisy in your post to Wrangler. And even attempting to speak down or degrade him in the tone of your writing I read. Well you need to know that there is another side to your pagan derived tale and impossible version of Jesus that is not in scripture at all.
When you say WHILE Jesus was a man, he was 'lower' than his Father means in Trinitarian-speak, Jesus was God before he was a man via our nifty handy, get out jail, backdoor pagan devise we call 'incarnation' and with its associated hypostasis with a dual impossible nature where they do not mix. And that we also have a pagan form of kenosis to let you know that Jesus emptied himself of his divine nature as God, just for you, and on a temporary basis of course.
And you have not a clue what John was describing in John 1 especially verses 1-3 and 14 as the touchstone and gateway member initiation into pagan Trinitarianism. You cannot come to terms and read that the Father God, his word, of voice and expression along with his Holy Spirit, was in Jesus. That the word is of the Father God not derived from his created Son. That would be impossible and a mockery to the one true God, YHWH
And then you say you must interpret scripture based on scripture. Yes indeed, you base it on scripture to a few degrees or not at all, and replace it with paganistic ideas and nullify the word of God. You avoid scripture that Jesus was conceived a.k.a. made and born and that Jesus was the 2nd Adam for a reason you not care to highlight I imagine. And that the one Father God was in Jesus since his creation via his HS.
The Father and the Son are one indeed, in purpose only, and not in essence - another pagan concept.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
You are not arguing with me, but with Scripture. It appears that you do not believe what Scripture says, because all of the "manure" you say I am posting comes directly from the Bible (which is the only Scripture). It does not take any interpretive genius to understand the divinity of Jesus as described in Scripture. It is clearly spelled out and stated many times. I have asked you and Wrangler questions about what different Scriptures mean, but you ignore my questions in favor of your accusations against myself and the others. I am done wasting time on you both. When you are ready to have a discussion about Scripture, not vindictive diatribe, then we can begin again.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
You are sad at my comment, but I am sad that you cannot see that your position is the epitome of anti-Christ. That spirit has been in the world since the first century, and is alive and well in the world today (as evidenced by your position portrayed above).
Wrangler
Well-known member
Well, that's what happens when you destroy definitions. Scripture is monotheist in one God - not a 3in1 God. See the difference?
Colossians 2:9
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.
1. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains: the nature or state of being God (12.13, theotēs, page 140, J. P. Louw and Eugene Nida).
2. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: the state of being God (theotēs, page 288).
Doug Brents
Well-known member
There is no definition destroyed in that. Scripture says that the Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father, that they are ONE. That means the two are one, just as a husband and wife are two but also one. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, but He is also a separate entity since He is not the Father nor the Son, but is still God. I know this is difficult to understand, since it is one of the mysteries that God does not fully explain, but He gives us enough hints (like marriage) that we can understand the concept if we are willing to let Scripture direct our thinking instead of foisting our preconceptions on Scripture to make it say what we already believe.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Relying on the worst translation available in English today does not help your cause.
Colossians 2:9
The Voice
9 You see, all that is God, all His fullness, resides in His body.
No "Godhead." That is a Pagan invention. Col 2:9 depicts Jesus, like us, as a container, where God - in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature - resides in our body.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
The wholeness of God does not reside in any human other than Jesus. Only a portion of God (the Holy Spirit), and only a portion of the Holy Spirit is given as He will it (1 Cor 12:4-11). Neither you, nor I, nor any other human has ever had the fullness of God residing in his body; only Christ.
The word theotēs has already been properly defined.
Don't attempt to destroy it.
It won't work.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Putting that aside, the fact that Jesus is NOT God is seen in the fact that God resides in him.
Such language would not be used If Jesus were God.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
So your are saying that, putting aside the fact that Jesus is God, you still hold that Jesus is not God?????
No, the full and complete deity of God (a title, not a name) resides in flesh in the form of Jesus.
Wrangler
Well-known member
No.
Putting aside your claim of God only fully residing in one man aside …
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Not my claim. The Holy Spirit's claim through Scripture.
