Why The Trinity is Wrong: Juxtaposition

[Wrangler]

Why make such silly arguments that potentially equally apply to either side?

Claims of equality do not hold up to scrutiny.

1. Is Jesus the son of God? Yes.
2. Is there explicit Scripture that states Jesus is the son of God? Yes.
3. 
   
4. Is there explicit Scripture that states Jesus is God the son? No.

IF Jesus were God, there would be Scripture with the word "IS" rather than "OF" God - servant, lamb, word, son, etc.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Claims of equality do not hold up to scrutiny.

1. Is Jesus the son of God? Yes.
2. Is there explicit Scripture that states Jesus is the son of God? Yes.
3. 
   
4. Is there explicit Scripture that states Jesus is God the son? No.

IF Jesus were God, there would be Scripture with the word "IS" rather than "OF" God - servant, lamb, word, son, etc.

I was referencing your appeal to "knowing" that the trinitarians know they are wrong. Do you remember "leading with that claim"?

 

[Fred]

IF Jesus were God, there would be Scripture with the word "IS" rather than "OF" God - servant, lamb, word, son, etc.

There is more than one way to express a truth claim.

 

[Wrangler]

This makes absolutely no sense.

Yes, it does. Imagine Doug Brents saying Joe is Doug Brents! That is what makes no sense. Are you talking in the 3rd person?

You seriously do not realize how your claim, "God said Jesus is God" is what makes absolutely no sense?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, it does. Imagine Doug Brents saying Joe is Doug Brents! That is what makes no sense. Are you talking in the 3rd person?

You seriously do not realize how your claim, "God said Jesus is God" is what makes absolutely no sense?

You're making our argument for us. We do not claim that Christ Jesus is the Father. That is your false narrative of what we believe. We have a very complex understanding of how the various "Persons" of the Trinity interact. You need to deal with this instead of oversimplifying God.

 

[Wrangler]

There is more than one way to express a truth claim.

The truth claim in this thread is that the trinity is wrong and juxtaposition between God and Jesus shows this.

Consider Acts 2:36. God made Jesus both lord and Christ is a way to express the truth claim that Jesus is NOT God. Otherwise, Scripture would not use such juxtapositions.

Reading comprehension.

• Who is the subject of the sentence, doing the acting? God in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature (not trinitarian preferred, the father).
• Who is the object of the sentence, being acted upon by the subject? Jesus

 

[Wrangler]

I was referencing your appeal to "knowing" that the trinitarians know they are wrong.

And my post shows how your claim to equality is invalid.

It is stunning how trinitarians cannot admit any evidence goes against your manmade doctrine. Stunning!

 

[praise_yeshua]

And my post shows how your claim to equality is invalid.

It is stunning how trinitarians cannot admit any evidence goes against your manmade doctrine. Stunning!

So you didn't claim that Trinitarians know they are wrong? I quoted exactly what you said.

 

[Fred]

Consider Acts 2:36. God made Jesus both lord and Christ is a way to express the truth claim that Jesus is NOT God.

False.

Scripture would not use such juxtapositions.

Sure it would to avoid Modalism, but that doesn't disprove Trinitarianism.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, it does. Imagine Doug Brents saying Joe is Doug Brents! That is what makes no sense. Are you talking in the 3rd person?

You seriously do not realize how your claim, "God said Jesus is God" is what makes absolutely no sense?

Then you should have an issue with John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

 

[APAK]

Can you elaborate on "side of you"? I'm curious. I do care what people think of me. Probably more than you think. I don't let it influence me in choices but I do honestly care.

Sure, you words show passion and frankness that I have not seen in them that often or with strung-together words in such a sequence. IOW I am seeing more of your heart in 'em words of yours. It is great to read them even if you disagree with me and others.

 

[dwight92070]

Have you noticed how many apparent contradictions there are in the Bible?

Apparently there are two who are called Lord, two who are called Savior, two who are called Holy, two who are called Righteous, two who are called Light, two who are called The King, two who are called The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, two who are called Eternal, two who are called Immortal, two who are called Invisible, two who are called Creator, two who are called The Word, two who are called The Everlasting Father, two who are called The First and the Last, two who are called The Alpha and the Omega, two who are called The Beginning and the End, two who have life in themselves, two who have a Kingdom, two who have all authority in heaven and on earth, two who have a gospel, the gospel of God and the gospel of Christ, two who are worthy of worship, two who can forgive sins, two who are The Only Sovereign, two who are called Redeemer, two who are called Judge, two who have power over Satan, two who have power over death, two who can heal the sick and those with diseases, two who answer prayers, two who have all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, two in whom we must put our faith, two who have promised us eternal life, two who are uncreated, two who only speak the word of God, two who alone give us grace, two who alone give us peace, two who alone give us hope, two who alone give us mercy, two who are love, two who possess eternal life, two who can calm the sea, two who can command the wind, two who can turn water into wine, two who can miraculously multiply fish, two who are faithful, two who cannot lie, and there are two who are called God.

How will we ever be able to resolve so many contradictions in the Bible?

 

[APAK]

Have you noticed how many apparent contradictions there are in the Bible?

Apparently there are two who are called Lord, two who are called Savior, two who are called Holy, two who are called Righteous, two who are called Light, two who are called The King, two who are called The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, two who are called Eternal, two who are called Immortal, two who are called Invisible, two who are called Creator, two who are called The Word, two who are called The Everlasting Father, two who are called The First and the Last, two who are called The Alpha and the Omega, two who are called The Beginning and the End, two who have life in themselves, two who have a Kingdom, two who have all authority in heaven and on earth, two who have a gospel, the gospel of God and the gospel of Christ, two who are worthy of worship, two who can forgive sins, two who are The Only Sovereign, two who are called Redeemer, two who are called Judge, two who have power over Satan, two who have power over death, two who can heal the sick and those with diseases, two who answer prayers, two who have all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, two in whom we must put our faith, two who have promised us eternal life, two who are uncreated, two who only speak the word of God, two who alone give us grace, two who alone give us peace, two who alone give us hope, two who alone give us mercy, two who are love, two who possess eternal life, two who can calm the sea, two who can command the wind, two who can turn water into wine, two who can miraculously multiply fish, two who are faithful, two who cannot lie, and their are two who are called God.

How will we ever be able to resolve so many contradictions in the Bible?

I don't personally think these and more are contradictions at all. To me they can be seen that way if I decide not to look further into scripture. If I begin to see threads and patterns in scripture, then I conclude these clear patterns are of God's methods of planning and execution.

I think these 'contradictions' can be explained in terms of the use of and activities such as : foreshadowing, proxies, delegations, distribution of powers, representations, human errs in translation of scripture whether deliberate or not. And many more...

Ans so there is nothing wrong with saying there are two saviours in scripture, as one is the source and the planner of salvation and the other is or was at the pointy end of the spear, in the trenches, executing this plan of salvation. Again the two forms and people as judges fall into this category. The same for the First and Last (Alpha and Omega). I would say context is so crucial for understanding these dualities, that have different purposes and are not really the same when context is viewed. The everlasting father in Isaiah 9:6 is not meant to mean the Father of the Son of God, and the Son of God as the father. This use of father is quite different and unique to the Son only. He is the first and last in this regard as the first raised from the dead - and thus the father or founder of it.....the new and first human spirit of eternal life. The forerunner, as Henry Ford was the father of the the model T and the father of the method of transforming the car industry with his style of production/assembly line. Not the best analogy, I know.

The same goes for the words, Lord and Lord directed at two different person. Where the translation should be LORD and lord; cause by human err in translation..

...stop here...great subject that should have a book written about it...maybe this forum can generate one together?!!

 

[Doug Brents]

Again, this is an expression still used today to mean you are on the same page as another - not the same Being as another.

Correct, they are not the same being. But they are the same God. Just as my wife and I are one, so too the Father and the Son and the Spirit are ONE.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Have you noticed how many apparent contradictions there are in the Bible?

Apparently there are two who are called Lord, two who are called Savior, two who are called Holy, two who are called Righteous, two who are called Light, two who are called The King, two who are called The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, two who are called Eternal, two who are called Immortal, two who are called Invisible, two who are called Creator, two who are called The Word, two who are called The Everlasting Father, two who are called The First and the Last, two who are called The Alpha and the Omega, two who are called The Beginning and the End, two who have life in themselves, two who have a Kingdom, two who have all authority in heaven and on earth, two who have a gospel, the gospel of God and the gospel of Christ, two who are worthy of worship, two who can forgive sins, two who are The Only Sovereign, two who are called Redeemer, two who are called Judge, two who have power over Satan, two who have power over death, two who can heal the sick and those with diseases, two who answer prayers, two who have all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, two in whom we must put our faith, two who have promised us eternal life, two who are uncreated, two who only speak the word of God, two who alone give us grace, two who alone give us peace, two who alone give us hope, two who alone give us mercy, two who are love, two who possess eternal life, two who can calm the sea, two who can command the wind, two who can turn water into wine, two who can miraculously multiply fish, two who are faithful, two who cannot lie, and there are two who are called God.

How will we ever be able to resolve so many contradictions in the Bible?

Believing solves "contradictions". Very seldom is can anything be judged by first appearances. Especially "God".

 

[praise_yeshua]

Correct, they are not the same being. But they are the same God. Just as my wife and I are one, so too the Father and the Son and the Spirit are ONE.

He will ignore this. He has been told this several times before.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, it does. Imagine Doug Brents saying Joe is Doug Brents! That is what makes no sense. Are you talking in the 3rd person?

No, Doug Brents is a proper name. "God" is not a proper name. It is a title and designation. There is only one God, but God is made up of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. The three are one. 1 John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

You seriously do not realize how your claim, "God said Jesus is God" is what makes absolutely no sense?

The Father (who is God) says that the Son is God and equal to the Father.

 

[Wrangler]

Correct, they are not the same being. But they are the same God.

Contradictions don't matter in trinity land.

 

[Wrangler]

No, Doug Brents is a proper name. "God" is not a proper name. It is a title and designation. There is only one God

And that God alone is YHWH who we relate to as our Father.

 

[Doug Brents]

Contradictions don't matter in trinity land.

There is no contradiction in God.

And that God alone is YHWH who we relate to as our Father.

That is partially correct. God is the Father, and God is the Word (who we relate to as the Son, Jesus), and God is the Spirit of God who dwells within the saints also called the Comforter. Some (my dad among them) say these are three manifestations of the same being. Some (myself included) say they are three separate beings that are "married" so closely that they are ONE. But either way, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God.