Why The Trinity is Wrong: Juxtaposition

Do you think the Trinity is correct or incorrect


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Not my claim. The Holy Spirit's claim through Scripture.
Not one time is such a claim actually made in Scripture. Extreme eisegesis.

IF the trinity claim were true, the doctrine would be specified at least once in 66 books. Consider a reason that there is no trinity verse is because its authors were not trinitarians.
 
Not one time is such a claim actually made in Scripture. Extreme eisegesis.

IF the trinity claim were true, the doctrine would be specified at least once in 66 books. Consider a reason that there is no trinity verse is because its authors were not trinitarians.
There are no passages in all of the 66 books that mention the trinity? You haven't been reading your Bible well enough. Let's see:
2 Cor 13:14 - "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."
Matt 28:19 - "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"
John 10:30, 36 - "I (Jesus) and the Father are one." "are you saying of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"
John 1:1-3, 14 - "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God. 2 He (Jesus) was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him (Jesus), and apart from Him (Jesus) not even one thing came into being that has come into being." "And the Word (Jesus) became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His (Jesus) glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."
Col 2:9 - "For in Him (Jesus) all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form"
Isa 9:6 - "For a Child (Jesus) will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."
Luke 3:22 - "and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him (Jesus) in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came from heaven: “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well pleased.”" Notice that the Holy Spirit (in the form of a dove) comes to Jesus (in the form of a man), and the Father (in spirit in Heaven) speaks. Three separate pieces of God interacting in one verse.
1 John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
John 14:9-11, 16-17 - "Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I (Jesus) am in the Father, and the Father is in Me (Jesus)? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own, but the Father, as He remains in Me, does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves." "I (Jesus) will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper (the Holy Spirit), so that He may be with you forever; 17 the Helper is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him; but you know Him because He remains with you and will be in you."
Gen 1:1 (compare with John 1:1) - "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." God created the heavens and the Earth, yet in John 1:1 it says that Jesus created everything that was created.
Col 1:15-17 - "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him (Jesus) all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him (Jesus) and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
Phil 2:6-8 - "who, as He (Jesus) already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross."

So that is ONE author (the Holy Spirit), through six (6) writers (Paul, Matthew, John, Isaiah, Luke, and Moses) in 10 books that more than one of the manifestations of God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are mentioned in the same passage.
 
There are no passages in all of the 66 books that mention the trinity?
Correct. I knew you’d Appeal to Strawman. To avoid more Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!
 
Correct. I knew you’d Appeal to Strawman. To avoid more Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!
I find it interesting that you think of Scripture's direct statements as "strawman", lol. There doesn't need to be a Scripture that says your co-equal, co-substantial nonsense. Read the Scriptures above. They do say that the three are one. They do say that they are all three eternal.
Who did the creating in Gen 1:1? God! And who did the creating in John 1:1? Jesus! They are the same.
Jesus existed from eternity before creation, as only God did.
 
Who did the creating in Gen 1:1? God! And who did the creating in John 1:1?
Also God. Trinitarians cannot accept that John 1:1 does not even refer to Jesus.

We know this because of John’s stated purpose in 20:31 did not include the claim that Jesus is God but the son of God.
 
Also God. Trinitarians cannot accept that John 1:1 does not even refer to Jesus.

We know this because of John’s stated purpose in 20:31 did not include the claim that Jesus is God but the son of God.
Yes, God did the creating in John 1:1. And then in John 1:14 we are told (not "we make up") that the Word of God (which was with God, and was God) became flesh and dwelt among us. Who is it that Scripture says came from God, became flesh, lived among us, and then returned to God? JESUS!!!
 
Also God. Trinitarians cannot accept that John 1:1 does not even refer to Jesus.

We know this because of John’s stated purpose in 20:31 did not include the claim that Jesus is God but the son of God.
Yes, God (the Word of God) did the creating in John 1:1. And then in John 1:14 we are told (not "we make up", not trinitarians hypothesize) that the Word of God (which was with God, and was God) became flesh and dwelt among us. Who is it that Scripture says came from God, became flesh, lived sinlessly among us, and then returned to God? JESUS!!!
 
And then in John 1:14 we are told (not "we make up") that the Word of God (which was with God, and was God) became flesh and dwelt among us.
But it does not say that God became flesh.

We all know you are trying to desperately appear to use logic but you aren't. You are reading into the text. The reason that what you want is not the text is because things like words can be god without being a Being, let alone the supreme Being. Look up the definition of God.

Words are not a Being.
 
But it does not say that God became flesh.

We all know you are trying to desperately appear to use logic but you aren't. You are reading into the text. The reason that what you want is not the text is because things like words can be god without being a Being, let alone the supreme Being. Look up the definition of God.

Words are not a Being.
The Word was with God; it was a separate being there with God at the beginning. The Bible is the Word of God, but the Bible is not God. Jesus is the Word of God, and Jesus IS God as John 1:1 says He is.
The Word was God; it was part of what made up the God that created all things.
The Word (God) became flesh; God in the flesh whose name is Jesus.
I am not "trying to desperately appear to use logic" here. I am saying what Scripture says.
 
The Word was with God; it was a separate being there with God at the beginning. The Bible is the Word of God, but the Bible is not God. Jesus is the Word of God, and Jesus IS God as John 1:1 says He is.
The Word was God; it was part of what made up the God that created all things.
The Word (God) became flesh; God in the flesh whose name is Jesus.
I am not "trying to desperately appear to use logic" here. I am saying what Scripture says.
Doug is there any reason you prefer being over person when describing God as Three in One ? Thanks !
 
Not quite. Words are not animate but are animated. The Creator created using words. But the words are not the Creator.
John 1:1-3 says that the Word of God is the Creator (not that he was used by God to do the creating), and nothing that was created was created without Him. The Word is the Light of the World, which is what Jesus is called in John 8:12 and many other places.
 
Most Trinitarians say God is 3 Persons, not 3 beings. Three Beings normally implies Tritheism whereas 3 Persons describe Trinitarianism.
I just think that the way God is described points toward three beings that are "married" so closely that they are One. They speak of "we" and "us", and the Son does not (did not while on Earth) know all that the Father knows because He emptied Himself. There are many who believe that they are one being that is simply manifested in three ways, and this may be so. But I think they are three distinctly different individuals united into one God. I do not worship three Gods, because they are not three separate gods, but ONE God in three parts.
 
I just think that the way God is described points toward three beings that are "married" so closely that they are One. They speak of "we" and "us", and the Son does not (did not while on Earth) know all that the Father knows because He emptied Himself. There are many who believe that they are one being that is simply manifested in three ways, and this may be so. But I think they are three distinctly different individuals united into one God. I do not worship three Gods, because they are not three separate gods, but ONE God in three parts.
Doug, Have you dusted off and relooked at your meaning of kenosis here lately. You do not have any scriptural source to say, and I presuming you mean, that Jesus somehow, someplace, somewhere, at sometime, discarded, ejected or emptied out' his 'divine nature' one part of his dual natures, part of his hypostasis state once united, on a temporary basis, whilst he visited earth for a spell to imitate and become only a man with a human nature and not as a human person.

I wonder what Paul would think about this type of definition and the incredible actions of Jesus, especially when he said we should have the mind of Jesus (Phil 2:5). And it also says that Jesus eventhough he was a/in a form (Father's spirit dwelt within him) of his God, never regarded himself attaining 'equality' with God, or that it was some type of robbery to be as God as he was already considered 'equal' with him because God was in him already (Phil 2:6).

Did Paul know Jesus did all this at some point in time? Sounds an impossible feat, as a Jesus under this type of definition of kenosis could never be a human person with a human mind for us to be like him as Paul emphasized. So, what was the point of Paul saying this to his audience if it was impossible to imitate?

Tell me how you think Jesus pulled it off, I mean his self-emptying act' in 'his incarnation,' to still have a human nature left intact after jettisoning his divine nature, and not being a human person at the same time. I could never understand this type of kenosis that I have never read in scripture.

Now some will say, no, he never discarded his divine nature, he just discarded 'his divine privileges' he once had in heaven.' They again how did he work that astonishing feat?

I read in scripture (Phil 2:7-8) that Jesus simply, voluntarily yielded over his human will to his Father's will with humility and became a lowly servant or slave to him, in complete obedience as a person of no reputation. Most people, human persons can easily understand this train of thought, especially if Jesus was a human person, a humble son of man, for God, as he called himself most of the time..
 
Doug, Have you dusted off and relooked at your meaning of kenosis here lately. You do not have any scriptural source to say, and I presuming you mean, that Jesus somehow, someplace, somewhere, at sometime, discarded, ejected or emptied out' his 'divine nature' one part of his dual natures, part of his hypostasis state once united, on a temporary basis, whilst he visited earth for a spell to imitate and become only a man with a human nature and not as a human person.
No, He did not cease to be God. He emptied Himself of His glory, power (He did all He did through the Holy Spirit, not of His own power), knowledge, authority, and honor. But He did not cease to be God.
I wonder what Paul would think about this type of definition and the incredible actions of Jesus, especially when he said we should have the mind of Jesus (Phil 2:5). And it also says that Jesus eventhough he was a/in a form (Father's spirit dwelt within him) of his God, never regarded himself attaining 'equality' with God, or that it was some type of robbery to be as God as he was already considered 'equal' with him because God was in him already (Phil 2:6).
He was equal with God because He was God. Yet He did not hold on to being equal to God; He willingly humbled Himself and became the lowest servant in God's creation.
Did Paul know Jesus did all this at some point in time? Sounds an impossible feat, as a Jesus under this type of definition of kenosis could never be a human person with a human mind for us to be like him as Paul emphasized. So, what was the point of Paul saying this to his audience if it was impossible to imitate?

Tell me how you think Jesus pulled it off, I mean his self-emptying act' in 'his incarnation,' to still have a human nature left intact after jettisoning his divine nature, and not being a human person at the same time. I could never understand this type of kenosis that I have never read in scripture.

Now some will say, no, he never discarded his divine nature, he just discarded 'his divine privileges' he once had in heaven.' They again how did he work that astonishing feat?

I read in scripture (Phil 2:7-8) that Jesus simply, voluntarily yielded over his human will to his Father's will with humility and became a lowly servant or slave to him, in complete obedience as a person of no reputation. Most people, human persons can easily understand this train of thought, especially if Jesus was a human person, a humble son of man, for God, as he called himself most of the time..
Jesus was completely man. He did not have any powers, authority, or knowledge that any other man is not able to have. Everything He did (miracles, supernatural knowledge, etc.) He did or received through the Holy Spirit. Yet, He did not give up being God.
 
well then it was 100% God that was G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') as I said before. now again 101G ask, and now hear you, then if the Lord Jesus is 100% and was G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō'), then the one whom you calls Father and the HOLY Spirit is 100% God also, is this correct? yes or no.

101G.
You "try" to sound intellectual but the things of YHVH is spiritually apprehended-and you need to rephrase your questions.
Made Himself of no reputation (ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν).

Lit., emptied Himself. The general sense is that He divested Himself of that peculiar mode of existence which was proper and peculiar to Him as one with God. He laid aside the form of God. In so doing, He did not divest Himself of His divine nature.

The change was a change of state: the form of a servant for the form of God. His personality continued the same. His self-emptying was not self-extinction, nor was the divine Being changed into a mere man.

In His humanity He retained the consciousness of deity, and in His incarnate state carried out the mind which animated Him before His incarnation. He was not unable to assert equality with God. He was able not to assert it.

Form of a servant (μορφὴν δούλου)

The same word for form as in the phrase form of God, and with the same sense. The mode of expression of a slave's being is indeed apprehensible, and is associated with human shape, but it is not this side of the fact which Paul is developing. It is that Christ assumed that mode of being which answered to, and was the complete and characteristic expression of, the slave's being. The mode itself is not defined. This is appropriately inserted here as bringing out the contrast with counted not equality with God, etc. What Christ grasped at in His incarnation was not divine sovereignty, but service.
Was made in the likeness of men (ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος)
Lit., becoming in, etc. Notice the choice of the verb, not was, but became: entered into a new state. Likeness. The word does not imply the reality of our Lord's humanity, μορφή form implied the reality of His deity. That fact is stated in the form of a servant. Neither is εἰκών image employed, which, for our purposes, implies substantially the same as μορφή. See on Col_1:15. As form of a servant exhibits the inmost reality of Christ's condition as a servant - that He became really and essentially the servant of men (Luk_22:27) - so likeness of men expresses the fact that His mode of manifestation resembled what men are. This leaves room for the assumption of another side of His nature - the divine - in the likeness of which He did not appear. As He appealed to men, He was like themselves, with a real likeness; but this likeness to men did not express His whole self. The totality of His being could not appear to men, for that involved the form of God. Hence the apostle views Him solely as He could appear to men. All that was possible was a real and complete likeness to humanity. What He was essentially and eternally could not enter into His human mode of existence. Humanly He was like men, but regarded with reference to His whole self, He was not identical with man, because there was an element of His personality which did not dwell in them - equality with God. Hence the statement of His human manifestation is necessarily limited by this fact, and is confined to likeness and does not extend to identity. “To affirm likeness is at once to assert similarity and to deny sameness” (Dickson). See on Rom_8:3.
The form of a servant (morphēn doulou). He took the characteristic attributes (morphēn as in Php_2:6) of a slave. His humanity was as real as his deity.
In the likeness of men (en homoiōmati anthrōpōn). It was a likeness, but a real likeness (Kennedy), no mere phantom humanity as the Docetic Gnostics held. Note the difference in tense between huparchōn (eternal existence in the morphē of God) and genomenos (second aorist middle participle of ginomai, becoming, definite entrance in time upon his humanity).
Question:

The Bible says that Jesus emptied himself (cf. Philippians 2:7), implying that Christ ceased to either be God altogether or from having certain Divine attributes. This is also known as the Kenosis theory, with the word Kenosis originating from the verb used by Paul in the text itself. In either case, this proves that Jesus cannot be God since God is immutable and cannot get rid of his Divine nature and attributes.

Answer:

Here is the specific text in question so as to help the readers see the point that is being made:

"but emptied himself (ekenoosen), taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men." RSV

The misunderstanding is that the word ekenoosen, from the verb kenoo, refers to an emptying of Christ’s Divine essence, his Divine abilities, which is not what the text is saying at all. Paul himself explains in what way Jesus "emptied" himself:

"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." Philippians 2:5-8 ESV

The blessed Apostle clearly shows us that the manner by which Christ emptied himself was by becoming a man and, hence, a slave. Paul was basically saying that Jesus laid aside his Divine privileges, not his Divine attributes. This can clearly be seen in the exhortation that we should follow his example. We cannot lay aside Divine attributes (since we do not have them), nor are we called to lay aside our human attributes, or cease to be human, but we should follow Jesus in his humility and willingness to serve others, even those who in this world are considered to be lower than ourselves in power or status. The Lord Jesus, according to the inspired Apostle, set aside the honor, the prestige, the fame, and the glory that comes with being God, a point he makes elsewhere:

"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich." 2 Corinthians 8:9

In the words of the Lord Jesus:

"And a scribe came up and said to him, ‘Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.’" Matthew 8:19-20

The prophet Isaiah said essentially the same thing when, by inspiration, he foresaw both the humiliation and glory of the Christ:

"Who has believed what they heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not." Isaiah 53:1-3

Putting it in another way, Christ emptied himself or made himself nothing when he came to the earth as a slave. The emptying refers to his humiliation, to his humble status, not to his Divine attributes or essence since at no point in time did Jesus ever cease to be God in nature. The Holy Bible clearly states that he remained both Lord and Son even during his earthly ministry, and yet the people couldn’t tell by simply looking at him and his humble surroundings that the Person standing before them was actually the glorious Son of God and the Sovereign Lord of all creation.

The following texts provide further clarification and support for our exegesis:

"And when the ten heard it, they began to be indignant at James and John. And Jesus called them to him and said to them, ‘You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.’" Mark 10:41-45

Jesus is Lord who didn’t exercise his Divine sovereignty like the Gentile rulers, but chose instead to be a servant to his subjects. The foregoing clearly shows that Christ was still Lord even while on earth but voluntarily set aside his rights and didn’t impose his authority on others in order to have them do whatever he wanted. He compelled his followers to obey and follow him by his unconditional love and service for them. The next passage beautifully illustrates this revealed truth:

"Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him, Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God, rose from supper. He laid aside his outer garments, and taking a towel, tied it around his waist. Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, ‘Lord, do you wash my feet?’ Jesus answered him, ‘What I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand.’ Peter said to him, ‘You shall never wash my feet.’ Jesus answered him, ‘If I do not wash you, you have no share with me.’ Simon Peter said to him, ‘Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!’ Jesus said to him, ‘The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you.’ For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, ‘Not all of you are clean.’ When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments and resumed his place, he said to them, ‘Do you understand what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord, AND YOU ARE RIGHT, FOR SO I AM. If I then, YOUR LORD AND TEACHER, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you. Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.’" John 13:1-17
 
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