Why The Trinity is Wrong: Juxtaposition

[Wrangler]

You can't even hold to the specific topic in a debate. let along the context of a specific Bible passage. We were talking about Hebrews 1

Hmmm. I started this thread. The subject is Why The Trinity is Wrong: Juxtaposition, not Hebrews 1.

This vid nicely dissects how bad the trinitarians take on Hebrews 1 is.

 

[Wrangler]

I thoroughly addressed your rebuttal that Hebrews 1 is primarily about David in #251.

LOL The rebuttal was to context. The entire Bible is written by monotheist Jews who reject the trinity to this day. I can understand you not wanting to understand Hebrews 1 in that context.

 

[dwight92070]

Of course the lamb is created. "The lamb" is a short hand as "the son" is a short hand. Both are properly speaking OF God. The lamb of God is how you know is NOT God.

This is not how language is used. No one says I am OF dwight92070 to mean that I AM dwight92070. To say I am OF my Father is not to be construed to mean that I AM God. Therefore, the lamb OF God is not God - even if it sits on God's throne.

Apparently you didn't look closely at Revelations 5:13 "AND EVERY CREATED THING ... worships the Father AND the Lamb." BUT Jesus is being worshiped WITH THE FATHER - He is NOT one of those created beings DOING THE WORSHIP!! Since He is not created, the only possible alternative is that He is the CREATOR, which is why He is being worshiped right along with the Father.

 

[civic]

Apparently you didn't look closely at Revelations 5:13 "AND EVERY CREATED THING ... worships the Father AND the Lamb." BUT Jesus is being worshiped WITH THE FATHER - He is NOT one of those created beings DOING THE WORSHIP!! Since He is not created, the only possible alternative is that He is the CREATOR, which is why He is being worshiped right along with the Father.

Yes eternal like the Father without beginning.

 

[dwight92070]

Unbelievable! Now, not worshipping God is evidence the person not worshipping is God?! Another Appeal to Ignorance.

To conclude from what I said that ANYBODY who is not worshiping God, IS God, is naive. I never said any such thing. You're putting words in my mouth!

However, when that person claims to love the Father above all else and says that the Father sent Him to the earth and desires to do only the Father's will and to only obey His Father's will, even to give Himself over to die for the sins of mankind, and yet we see Him in heaven NOT worshiping His Father - YES, THAT IS EVIDENCE THAT HE HIMSELF IS GOD!! Why would God worship God?

That is not ignorance. That's just closely looking at the Word of God. By the way, you don't think we can learn from things that Jesus DIDN'T DO? If that's what you think, you are wrong.

Did you ever read where Jesus prayed for a miracle? No, He just spoke the word and the miracle happened.
What can we learn from that? That He, like God and as God, speaks and miracles happen.

Does the Bible tell us Jesus had faith? No, it doesn't.
What can we learn from that? God doesn't need faith in God. We DO!!

Even though Jesus was a prophet, did He ever say, "Thus says the Lord ... blah, blah, blah,", like the Old Testament prophets did?
No, He did not say that. Why? Because HE WAS THE LORD! Everything He said WAS THE LORD GOD SPEAKING!!

And, as the LAMB in heaven, Jesus did not worship the Father. Revelation chapters 4 and 5
Why? Because He is God and He and the Father RECEIVE our worship.

So we shouldn't be so quick to think that we can't learn from things that are not said or done. I think even a good detective would agree with this.

 

[dwight92070]

In #265, the second and third sentences are attributed to Wrangler. That is incorrect!
Those were MY STATEMENTS!!

 

[Wrangler]

Apparently you didn't look closely at Revelations 5:13 "AND EVERY CREATED THING ... worships the Father AND the Lamb." BUT Jesus is being worshiped WITH THE FATHER - He is NOT one of those created beings DOING THE WORSHIP!! Since He is not created, the only possible alternative is that He is the CREATOR, which is why He is being worshiped right along with the Father.

This is where trinitarians fail big time. There are always non-trinitarian alternatives to understanding the monotheist text.

Once again, you are hoping to back door your doctrine onto monotheist text through one rationalization or other. God gave Jesus the revelation in Rev 1:1. True?

God - in his unitarian nature - gave Jesus all authority in heaven and Earth. True?

God is exempt from Jesus’ delegated authority. True?

 

[Wrangler]

By the way, you don't think we can learn from things that Jesus DIDN'T DO? If that's what you think, you are wrong.

Appeal to Strawman. I agree that we can learn from what Jesus DIDN'T DO; Jesus did not teach the trinity.

 

[dwight92070]

Appeal to Strawman. I agree that we can learn from what Jesus DIDN'T DO; Jesus did not teach the trinity.

 

[dwight92070]

Nor did He teach that He was the Messiah. But He was, wasn't He? Only on maybe 2 or 3 occasions, He said that He was the Messiah, but it was not part of His teaching, i.e. in any direct way.

You love to twist and distort what I say, don't you? Your attitude is so offensive and hateful toward anyone who believes in the Trinity.

"The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes."

Once again, you deliberately twisted what I said. I NEVER said that EVERYTHING that Jesus did not do, is the right thing to do, did I?

 

[Wrangler]

Nor did He teach that He was the Messiah.

Sure he did - 3 times! To the woman at the well, in response to Peters confession and to Caiphas. See Mark 14:61-62

 

[synergy]

Nor did He teach that He was the Messiah. But He was, wasn't He? Only on maybe 2 or 3 occasions, He said that He was the Messiah, but it was not part of His teaching, i.e. in any direct way.

You love to twist and distort what I say, don't you? Your attitude is so offensive and hateful toward anyone who believes in the Trinity.

"The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes."

Once again, you deliberately twisted what I said. I NEVER said that EVERYTHING that Jesus did not do, is the right thing to do, did I?

I'm finding that Unitarians have very poor English language comprehension skills. For example, they don't understand how to distinguish between that which is literal and that which is a figure of speech. They also toss out portions of scripture that do not conform to their unitarian presuppositions. Their communication skills are poor also as you're finding out. Don't let that frustrate you because it could very well be deliberate on their part.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm finding that unitarians have very poor English language comprehension skills. For example, they don't understand how to distinguish between that which is literal and that which is a figure of speech.

Agreed.

 

[Wrangler]

They also toss out portions of scripture that do not conform to their uninitarian presuppositions.

Ince again, agreed. Verses like there is only one God, YHWH, who we relate to as Father.

 

[dwight92070]

This is where trinitarians fail big time. There are always non-trinitarian alternatives to understanding the monotheist text.

Okay, why don't you tell me your non-trinitarian alternatives as to why Jesus, the Lamb, did not worship the Father, when He was in heaven? So far, you haven't given me any alternatives

Once again, you are hoping to back door your doctrine onto monotheist text through one rationalization or other. God gave Jesus the revelation in Rev 1:1. True?

God - in his unitarian nature - gave Jesus all authority in heaven and Earth. True?

God is exempt from Jesus’ delegated authority. True?

Sure he did - 3 times! To the woman at the well, in response to Peters confession and to Caiphas. See Mark 14:61-62

You don't even finish reading my post, before you send off a criticism! I SAID THAT ON 2 OR 3 OCCASIONS, JESUS ACKNOWLEDGED THAT HE WAS THE MESSIAH. But each time, it was addressed to an individual. This was not a public teaching of His. In fact, He told many people NOT to tell anyone Who He was. He did not go around telling everybody, "I am the Messiah." So my first statement was correct. He did NOT (publicly) teach that He was the Messiah.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm finding that Unitarians have very poor English language comprehension skills.

Great! Impress us with your outstanding English skills in constructing a stronger anti-trinitarian statement than 1 COR 8:6 There is only one God, the Father.

 

[Wrangler]

Okay, why don't you tell me your non-trinitarian alternatives as to why Jesus, the Lamb, did not worship the Father, when He was in heaven? So far, you haven't given me any alternatives

No explanation is necessary to your made up, back door rationalizations. Again, lots of people don’t worship the Father. Doesn’t make them God.

 

[civic]

Agreed.

Please don’t change what another poster said when quoting them. Thanks !

 

[Predestined]

Ince again, agreed. Verses like there is only one God, YHWH, who we relate to as Father.

Please don’t change words when quoting a poster from unitarian to trinitarian.

 

[dwight92070]

No explanation is necessary to your made up, back door rationalizations. Again, lots of people don’t worship the Father. Doesn’t make them God.

No explanation is necessary to your made up, back door rationalizations. Again, lots of people don’t worship the Father. Doesn’t make them God.

That just shows me you don't have any. I'm getting tired of your obsession with the phrase "back door rationalizations". Maybe you could be creative and use your outstanding English skills, and come up with a new insult.