101G
Well-known member
ERROR, "EQUAL SHARE" ECHAD, listen Ordinal First and Ordinal Last..... when will they ever Learn.
101G.
Why The Trinity is Wrong: Juxtaposition
- Thread starter Wrangler
- Start date
101G.
Is there a translator in the house who can translate 101G's words into understandable English?
101G
Well-known member
God can, Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
ONE: H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258
definition #2. see it? now follow. the LORD here is the First.... correct. now this, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."
THE "FIRST" IS "WITH" THE "LAST?" is this two persons? let the bible tell us, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." now, how many person is I? one... lol, see you have no clue of the ECHAD
now, the EQUAL SHARE, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
remember the "WITH" above in Isaiah? the Lord Jesus NATURE/Form is equal with, not equal to, but with. how do 101G know this? for the Root word for form
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
is
G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n.
1. a portion (i.e. an amount allotted, a part of something). NOW, WHAT IS ANOTHER WORD FOR "PORTION", OR "ALLOTTED?" ANSWER, "SHARE". LOOK IT UP PLEASE.
this is why You are IGNORANT of God Nature. pick up a dictionary sometimes........ok.
101G
civic
Well-known member
No getting around the shared throne , the shared , worship, glory and praise the YHWH declared several times withdrawn never be shared by another.
Conclusion: the Son is YHWH and equal with the Father and receives the identical worship , praise, honor and glory as the Father.
Jesus said that in John 17:5. He shared the same glory with the Father before creation and we know only God was in existence alone prior to creation.
101G
Well-known member
101G
Well-known member
to all,
understand, the title Son and Father is the same one person, not two separate persons. listen, Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;" Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"
people understand this letter of Revelation is from one person, and one person ONLY. "from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;" is the Lord Jesus.
#1. him, “which is, and which was, and which is to come". this is "I AM THAT I AM"
Evidence #1. Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty”. So the “which is, and which was, and which is to come” is the Almighty, the Lord.for there is only one Almighty, the LORD, all caps. Genesis 17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect."
Evidence #2. Revelation 4:8 "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which is, and which was, and which is to come”. Again the which is, and which was, and which is to come is the Lord God Almighty. who is JESUS, the Lord.
Evidence #3. Revelation 11:17 "Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned".
So clearly we see that him, “which art, and wast, and art to come“, is the Lord God Almighty. JESUS?
#2. him, the “Seven Spirits”. this is also the Lord Jesus.
Evidence #1. Revelation 3:1 "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead”. We know that this is the Lord Jesus who is addressing the church in Sardis, and he, the “Lord” Jesus said that he has the “Seven Spirits”.
Evidence #2. Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth”. BINGO, “which are the seven Spirits of God ”. so it is the Lord JESUS. for he stood/resurrected, from being slain.
Evidence #3. the one who have the seven Spirits is the Same one who is the First and the Last,
Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death". the only one who was dead and live evermore is the Lord JESUS, right.
So the the one who have the seven Spirit is the First and the Last who is the Lord God Almighty.
Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last”. who is the “First & Last?”, the Lord God Almighty. BINGO, that confirm who is the Lord God Almighty is, JESUS.
And lastly, “the true witness”, that’s a no brainier, a give me. The Lord Jesus.
The only person who is the central theme of this book is the Lord Jesus, who is the Spirit, and God is a Spirit (John 4:24a). so no three separate and distinct persons here. THIS IS NOT 101G, BUT THE BIBLE.
101G
understand, the title Son and Father is the same one person, not two separate persons. listen, Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;" Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"
people understand this letter of Revelation is from one person, and one person ONLY. "from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;" is the Lord Jesus.
#1. him, “which is, and which was, and which is to come". this is "I AM THAT I AM"
Evidence #1. Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty”. So the “which is, and which was, and which is to come” is the Almighty, the Lord.for there is only one Almighty, the LORD, all caps. Genesis 17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect."
Evidence #2. Revelation 4:8 "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which is, and which was, and which is to come”. Again the which is, and which was, and which is to come is the Lord God Almighty. who is JESUS, the Lord.
Evidence #3. Revelation 11:17 "Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned".
So clearly we see that him, “which art, and wast, and art to come“, is the Lord God Almighty. JESUS?
#2. him, the “Seven Spirits”. this is also the Lord Jesus.
Evidence #1. Revelation 3:1 "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead”. We know that this is the Lord Jesus who is addressing the church in Sardis, and he, the “Lord” Jesus said that he has the “Seven Spirits”.
Evidence #2. Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth”. BINGO, “which are the seven Spirits of God ”. so it is the Lord JESUS. for he stood/resurrected, from being slain.
Evidence #3. the one who have the seven Spirits is the Same one who is the First and the Last,
Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death". the only one who was dead and live evermore is the Lord JESUS, right.
So the the one who have the seven Spirit is the First and the Last who is the Lord God Almighty.
Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last”. who is the “First & Last?”, the Lord God Almighty. BINGO, that confirm who is the Lord God Almighty is, JESUS.
And lastly, “the true witness”, that’s a no brainier, a give me. The Lord Jesus.
The only person who is the central theme of this book is the Lord Jesus, who is the Spirit, and God is a Spirit (John 4:24a). so no three separate and distinct persons here. THIS IS NOT 101G, BUT THE BIBLE.
101G
Let's look at Deu 6:4:
(Deu 6:4) Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord.
What you're trying to do is the following:
(Deu 6:4) Hear, O Israel,
Sorry, I cannot buy that manipulation attempt.
Mind you, if you look at the Greek, it's not so straight forward. I need to investigate further the κύριος εἷς ἐστιν portion.
(Deu 6:4) Ἄκουε, Ισραηλ· κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν κύριος εἷς ἐστιν
101G
Well-known member
LOL, personal oponion.... trash can, Get a KJV.
get a KJV ...... (smile).
101G
Wrangler
Well-known member
Yea, put that KJV in the trash can. The KJV is the worst translation available today in English.LOL, personal oponion.... trash can, Get a KJV.
get a KJV ...... (smile).
101G
Jesus said this is the most important law, the Sh'ma which begins by destroying the trinity. The VOICE translation renders it this way.
Moses: 4 Listen, Israel! The Eternal is our True God—He alone.
Alone is not a trinity make. Other translations say God is one and no translation says God is 3-in-1. IF it did, it would be evidence in support of the trinity. As it is, it destroys the trinity.
The way trinitarians attempt to escape is by not having a non-contradictory rejection criteria for the IDOL. One guy said the Sh'ma is actually good evidence in favor of the trinity. I asked what would be good evidence against the trinity. No answer.
The Greek OT (LXX) is what the Apostles used to write their Epistles. Between the KJV and the Greek LXX, I'll take the Greek LXX. Sorry.LOL, personal oponion.... trash can, Get a KJV.
get a KJV ...... (smile).
101G
Always remember to honor our agreement for both of us to not "accept what 101G is saying" and you will never go wrong.
dwight92070
Well-known member
What? You cannot even follow one of the first rules of Bible interpretation? CONTEXT!! You can't even see that the author of Hebrews MAKES JESUS THE ENTIRE THEME of chapter one? Not David.
David's name only appears ONCE in all of Hebrews in chapter 4:7. His name is mentioned in passing, on a totally different topic than chapter one.
In fact, do you realize that Jesus is the OVERARCHING THEME OF ALL THIRTEEN CHAPTERS OF HEBREWS?
Chapter 1:1-4 "God ... in these last days has spoken to us IN HIS SON (JESUS), WHOM He appointed HEIR of all things, THROUGH WHOM also He MADE THE WORLD. And HE (Jesus) IS THE RADIANCE OF HIS GLORY and THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS NATURE and (He, Jesus) UPHOLDS ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER. When HE (Jesus) MADE PURIFICATION OF SINS, HE (JESUS) SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MAJESTY ON HIGH, HAVING BECOME AS MUCH BETTER THAN THE ANGELS, AS HE (JESUS) HAS INHERITED A MORE EXCELLENT NAME THAN THEY.
The author CONTINUES WITH JESUS AS THE MAIN THEME IN VERSES 5 THROUGH 13.
.
You think verse 5 is speaking of DAVID, even though Paul identifies Him as JESUS? "For to which of the angels did He ever say, You are My Son, today I have begotten You"? Paul quotes this same verse from the Psalms and identifies this as JESUS (Acts 13:33)
You think verse 6 is speaking of DAVID? "And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him ..." So you think God has the angels worship DAVID??
You think God is referring to DAVID in verses 8 -13 where it says:
"But of the SON (He says), Your throne, O God is forever and ever ... Therefore God, Your God, has anointed you .. And, You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; ... and Your years will not come to an end. But to which of the angels has He ever said, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet'?"
Keep in mind that Jesus is the theme of Hebrews, not David. So why would chapter one be any different?
You think God calls DAVID "God" and "Lord"? And does He credit DAVID with laying the foundation of the earth? And did DAVID's years never come to an end? And did DAVID sit at God's right hand, waiting for God to make his enemies a footstool for his feet?
Even Jesus Himself explains (in Matthew 22:44) Who is speaking in Hebrew 1:13 and Who He is speaking TO. "The Lord (God the Father) says to my (David's) Lord (the Son, Jesus), 'Sit at My right hand ..."
In fact, God the Father is speaking to Jesus, the Son ALL THE WAY from Hebrews 1:5 through verse 13.
In addressing His Son, He calls Him "God" in verses 8 and 9 and calls Him "Lord" in verse 10.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Your flippant attitude towards God's word is unconscionable!
Okay, let's look at what DID happen!
When every created thing in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, and the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders and multiplied millions of angels - praised, blessed, honored, glorified, ascribed power to, and riches, and wisdom, and might, and dominion to Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb - it is absolutely obvious that Jesus is "on the same level, on the same plane, in the same category, of the same essence, as God Himself - so much so, that the Bible records godly men and women calling Him God and Lord. Did you notice from the information given in this paragraph, taken from Revelation 5:11-14, that we can know and understand that THE LAMB WAS NOT AND IS NOT A CREATED BEING? HE IS UNCREATED. HE ALWAYS WAS AND IS AND IS TO COME.
The fact that you're not even curious about why the Lamb Himself would not worship the Father, not even in heaven itself - reveals not only your attitude but also confirms that Jesus is assuredly God. Your answer shows that you know that, but you don't want to admit it, because it crushes the idol of your pet doctrine.
Wrangler
Well-known member
LOL. The entire Bible* is written by monotheist Jews who reject the trinity to this day! How about that for CONTEXT?
With possible exception of Luke.
dwight92070
Well-known member
You can't even hold to the specific topic in a debate. let along the context of a specific Bible passage. We were talking about Hebrews 1, and apparently you're not able to refute my interpretation of those verses, so you dodge that and go for monotheistic Jews who reject the trinity. I would be glad to discuss that, after you defend your position that Hebrews 1 is primarily about David, which you failed to do. Or will you just do another "hit and run"?
civic
Well-known member
Getting people to stay on point is difficult at times. I hope to see you guys in a good dialogue with Hebrews 1.
Wrangler
Well-known member
LOL. You brought up context.
Rather than address my rebuttal, you resort to Ad Hominem.
Wrangler
Well-known member
What Bible are you reading? My Bible says that God is greater than Jesus, knows more than Jesus, sent Jesus, told Jesus what to say and how to say it. Jesus submitted to the will of God and died as God willed. God is eternal, unchanging and cannot die. All this is THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF being the same plane, category and essesnce.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Of course the lamb is created. "The lamb" is a short hand as "the son" is a short hand. Both are properly speaking OF God. The lamb of God is how you know is NOT God.
This is not how language is used. No one says I am OF dwight92070 to mean that I AM dwight92070. To say I am OF my Father is not to be construed to mean that I AM God. Therefore, the lamb OF God is not God - even if it sits on God's throne.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Unbelievable! Now, not worshipping God is evidence the person not worshipping is God?! Another Appeal to Ignorance.
dwight92070
Well-known member
I thoroughly addressed your rebuttal that Hebrews 1 is primarily about David in #251. Instead of showing me where I misinterpreted Hebrews 1, your response was to switch topics to monotheistic Jews who reject the Trinity. However, let me try to get this back on track. Most likely, the author of Hebrews was a monotheistic Jew, who probably never even heard of the Trinity. However, he DID quote the Father, in chapter one, calling His Son "God" twice and "Lord" once, so it's very likely that He did believe that Jesus was Himself God, and that the Holy Spirit was God. The apostle John believed Jesus was God, so did Matthew, Paul did, Peter did, Isaiah believed the Son was God, Micah did, and others did. So to assert that the entire Bible was written by monotheistic Jews who rejected the Trinity is false - I think they believed in the concept of the Trinity, even though it had not yet been called that.
So, no, the Bible authors revelations and writings reveal in many places that they knew that the Messiah would be, in the case of Old Testament, or was, in the case of New Testament, Himself God. Hebrews 1 is a prime example.
