Micaiah
Active member
No, you just keep theologically inserting it over and over again into the ambiguous passages of scripture.
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The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth
- Thread starter Rowan
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No, you just keep theologically inserting it over and over again into the ambiguous passages of scripture.
Micaiah
Active member
This doesn’t support the Trinity.
If you think it does:
Are we a part of the god trilogy according to this verse:
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one...” (John 17:23, KJV)
That would be a quadruplet, no?
Believers, the Son, the Father, and the Holy Ghost?
Micaiah
Active member
None of those teach a Trinity.
Mental scaffolding is built around those passages and then the trinity is worked into the passages.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
There are two types of communion described in the Bible.
- One has to do with the communion between the believer and God, which is achieved through Jesus Christ, sent by God.
- The other has to do with the communion among our fellow men.
The prayer of Jesus to his Father in John 17 is a beautiful expression of this.
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may also glorify You. As You have given Him authority over all flesh, He will give eternal life to all whom You have given Him. 3 This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word, that they may all be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You. May they also be one in Us, that the world may believe that You have sent Me. I have given them the glory which You gave Me, that they may be one even as We are one: I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfect in unity, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
Fitzpatrick
Active member
Sure it does you just refuse to let yourself to see it that's all.
I am in the father and the father is in me means they are one.
Make sure you wear your Hard hat.
I am in the father and the father is in me means they are one.
Make sure you wear your Hard hat.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Jesus explicitly said that His Father, to whom He prayed and prostrated, was "The Only and True God".
Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may also glorify You. ... This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent (John 17:1,3)
Jesus was not His Father. Jesus had his will. God had his will. And Jesus submitted his will to the will of the True and Only God, his Father.
Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me. Nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” (Luke 22:42)
Jesus, a Jew, explicitly declared that his Father was his God... and this God was the same God than his Jewish disciples worshiped. Jews worship only one God, YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
go to My brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ” (John 20:17)
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
The passages I've quoted are supportive of these premises:
- There is only One True God.
- Jesus is not His Father.
- Jesus says that His Father is his God.
Great. you just listed the features of the Trinity. That is the first step.
Mostly is a modalist who says Jesus is the Father. That is not the Trinity doctrine.
Jesus speaks from his humanity, as a prophet among his people, of God as their all God. His mention is easily recognizable as speaking of the Father in the Trinity while also acknowledging there is no God except what we see in the Godhead.
Since Jesus is not some sort of separate god, his divinity within the Godhead is not prohibited when he speaks of the one true God.
Hence, it is not useful to try to use those verses to deny what scripture reveals about the divinity of Christ in the Godhead. It is not as if people, when coming to agreement on the Trinity, missed those verses.
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Joy
Member
Well said Mike.
I'm not sure what to say for people who perhaps would agree that Jesus should have been killed for blasphemy as the priests and officers charged
john 19
Pilate said to them, “Behold the man!” 6 When the chief priests and the officers saw him, they cried out, “Crucify him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves and crucify him, for I find no guilt in him.” 7 The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and according to that law he ought to die because he has made himself the Son of God
I doubt they had a special law that was not about claiming to be God but rather was specific to someone claiming to be the Son of God. Pilate was a bit nervous when the top religious leaders were stating why they thought Jesus was guilty by virtue of his claim to divinity with the Father.
john 19
Pilate said to them, “Behold the man!” 6 When the chief priests and the officers saw him, they cried out, “Crucify him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves and crucify him, for I find no guilt in him.” 7 The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and according to that law he ought to die because he has made himself the Son of God
I doubt they had a special law that was not about claiming to be God but rather was specific to someone claiming to be the Son of God. Pilate was a bit nervous when the top religious leaders were stating why they thought Jesus was guilty by virtue of his claim to divinity with the Father.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
No my friend. Jesus is praying to his Father, not to a plural Godhead.
He is starting his prayer with “Father”
He is telling His Father “You are the Only True God”.
In addition, and to close the argument, he is mentioning Himself in the very same sentence. He is calling himself a Messenger, an Ambassador (in Spanish we say “Enviado”, One who is Sent)
If You believe than Jesus has his own mind, his own will, and the Father has his own mind and will, and the Holy Spirit has his own mind, his own will, you have a problem, because only one mind and will can be God. Otherwise you end up having a conclave, a synod, a summit of three minds and wills. Three minds and three wills that you worship.
It is, since He is talking to a specific Mind and Will.
i don't see how this is challenging the Trinitarian nature of God. Jesus in his humanity speaks of conforming to God's will. There is no issue raised against this. Maybe there is something else to challenge the sense of the Triune nature of God found in scripture.
civic
Well-known member
Salvation is in Christ alone, that should be your first clue. He alone is the Savior of all men.Are you going to quote the Holy Bible at some point?
Micaiah
Active member
Salvation is in Christ alone, that should be your first clue. He alone is the Savior of all men.
Amen!
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” (John 3:17, KJV)
God did not send Himself into the world.
He sent His Son.
101G
Well-known member
GINOLJC, to all.
did 101G ever said there was a teaching on the trinity in the OT or NT? if so please give my post # to that.
101G.
All the above does not contradict Jesus when He declared Himself as the Great "I Am" of the OT who existed before Abraham (John 8:58).
The will is an attribute of nature. That's why we always speak of human will (singular), not human wills. In the same way we speak of God's will (singular), not God's wills. Everyone possesses an inate common human will that he did not personally design. It is part of your God-given human nature, common amongst us all.
What you do with your human will is a totally different story based on your personality and personal choice. We all possess the God-given ability to make personal choices but we never refer to our human will as human wills.
So your accusation of three wills is by definition incorrect.
Micaiah
Active member
That’s the trinitarian spin on the verse.
But Christ was simply referring to this idea when he said “before Abraham was, I am”:
“…[Christ] Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you…” (1 Peter 1:19-20, KJV)
So Jesus was expecting the Pharisees to understand an "idea" that was only proclaimed by Peter years later and understood only after the Cross took place!?!? Is that why the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus because He holding back on revealing that to the Pharisees? Talk about putting a spin on things.
Micaiah
Active member
So Jesus was expecting the Pharisees to understand an "idea" that was only proclaimed by Peter years later and understood only after the Cross took place!?!? Is that why the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus because He holding back on revealing that to the Pharisees? Talk about putting a spin on things.
You do err not knowing the scriptures.
It was proclaimed in the OT as well:
“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” (Micah 5:2, KJV)
The Trinitarian doctrine does nothing to help your Christian character by the way…
