The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth

[mikesw]

It's not stupid to say that the trinity is not from God but something from the devil to trick Christians into not knowing the truth. You do not agree. Fine. But I'm not attacking you personally like you are me. The devil tried to drag Jesus down from being the Messiah. But he could not. So he pushed him up and made him God. You think that is nonsense because you bought the devil's lie. Fine. I did not.

I'm just giving you a mirror. If you are not liking the reflection...
You are effectively saying the devil has made Christ to seem to speak from his divinity so that people will not listen to his message. I fail to see the logic in what the devil has done here.
I cannot even find anything left of true Christianity in the pattern of doctrine you are sharing. The glimpses I get are rather confusing. What do you hold as truth that meshes with some of us Christians here? Have you just reduced Christ to being a friendly moralist teacher?

 

[synergy]

It's not stupid to say that the trinity is not from God but something from the devil to trick Christians into not knowing the truth. You do not agree. Fine. But I'm not attacking you personally like you are me. The devil tried to drag Jesus down from being the Messiah. But he could not. So he pushed him up and made him God. You think that is nonsense because you bought the devil's lie. Fine. I did not.

Please forward all Bible verses that support your highlighted comments above. We wouldn't want to think that you're making things up, right?

 

[dwight92070]

I'm just giving you a mirror. If you are not liking the reflection...
You are effectively saying the devil has made Christ to seem to speak from his divinity so that people will not listen to his message. I fail to see the logic in what the devil has done here.
I cannot even find anything left of true Christianity in the pattern of doctrine you are sharing. The glimpses I get are rather confusing. What do you hold as truth that meshes with some of us Christians here? Have you just reduced Christ to being a friendly moralist teacher?

This unfortunately can be what happens to people who doggedly refuse to see what is right in front of their face - that Jesus is indeed God. They begin to throw the baby out with the bath water. Your statement is exactly correct:
"I cannot even find anything left of true Christianity in the pattern of doctrine you are sharing."

 

[Peterlag]

• He was not unoriginated. Christ was the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16).
• He was not self-existent. “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57).
• He was not immortal. Jesus died and God resurrected Him (Acts 13:30).
• He was not all wise. Jesus “grew in wisdom” (Luke 2:52).
• He was not all-powerful. Christ said “the Son can do nothing by Himself” (John 5:19).
• He was not omnipresent. Jesus said after Lazarus died “I am glad I was not there” (John 11:15).

 

[mikesw]

Hooray. Those are great finds. It is amazing how all the people who met together to discuss the divinity of Christ and the Triune nature of God missed those verses. What's your bitcoin wallet number? I have to go write those verses into my bible. I'm sure they forgot to add those to my bible.

 

[Micaiah]

you would classify yourself as a unitarian correct, that only the Father is God ?

I classify myself as a Bible believing Christian who believes this scripture:

“But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” (1 Corinthians 8:6, KJV)

 

[dwight92070]

• He was not unoriginated. Christ was the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16).
• He was not self-existent. “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57).
• He was not immortal. Jesus died and God resurrected Him (Acts 13:30).
• He was not all wise. Jesus “grew in wisdom” (Luke 2:52).
• He was not all-powerful. Christ said “the Son can do nothing by Himself” (John 5:19).
• He was not omnipresent. Jesus said after Lazarus died “I am glad I was not there” (John 11:15).

1. Jesus had two natures, a human nature and a divine nature. He was man and He was God. His mother was human but His Father was God. He was born of the Holy Spirit and the Father and Mary. Mat.1:18,20; Luke 1:35. Physically He had a beginning in Bethlehem. His spirit, however, was and is eternal. His spirit had no beginning and no end. Peter said that by His promises, we may partake of the divine nature. However, we were not born supernaturally as He was. 2 Peter 1:4
2. Jesus existed physically because the Father and the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary. His spirit, however, was and is eternal. Prior to His birth, John said He was called the Word. John 1:1,30; John 17:5
3. Jesus died physically only because He willingly took all the sins of mankind on Himself, and the wages of sin is death. Had He not done that, He never would have died. But His spirit never died. His spirit was and is eternal. Luke 23:46
4. As a human baby and child, He grew in wisdom. But in His spirit dwelt all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, and that is still true. Colossians 2:3 Peter knew this - John 21:17
5. As a human Jesus' physical strength was limited. But His spirit, being eternal, could do all things, and He still can.
By the way, it appears you changed the words "of Himself" to "by Himself" in John 5:19, which clearly changes the meaning, favoring your interpretation. Most versions, if not all, say "of Himself". Not only that, but you didn't quote the complete verse, so I will do that for you.
"Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing OF Himself, UNLESS it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner." And we know He ALWAYS saw what the Father was doing.
6. Physically, Jesus could only be in one place at a time. But His spirit, being God, was and is everywhere. John 1:48; John 11:14; Luke 10:18

Jesus, "Although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. ..." Philippians 2:6-8

Temporarily, Jesus voluntarily "emptied Himself" of some of His privileges as God, but He never emptied Himself from being God.

 

[Peterlag]

1. Jesus had two natures, a human nature and a divine nature. He was man and He was God. His mother was human but His Father was God. He was born of the Holy Spirit and the Father and Mary. Mat.1:18,20; Luke 1:35. Physically He had a beginning in Bethlehem. His spirit, however, was and is eternal. His spirit had no beginning and no end. Peter said that by His promises, we may partake of the divine nature. However, we were not born supernaturally as He was. 2 Peter 1:4
2. Jesus existed physically because the Father and the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary. His spirit, however, was and is eternal. Prior to His birth, John said He was called the Word. John 1:30; John 17:5
3. Jesus died physically only because He willingly took all the sins of mankind on Himself, and the wages of sin is death. Had He not done that, He never would have died. But His spirit never died. His spirit was and is eternal. Luke 23:46
4. As a human baby and child, He grew in wisdom. But in His spirit dwelt all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, and that is still true. Colossians 2:3 Peter knew this - John 21:17
5. As a human Jesus' physical strength was limited. But His spirit, being eternal, could do all things, and He still can.
6. Physically, Jesus could only be in one place at a time. But His spirit, being God, was and is everywhere. John 1:48; John 11:14; Luke 10:18

Jesus, "Although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." Philippians 2:6-8

Temporarily, Jesus voluntarily "emptied Himself" of some of His privileges as God, but He never emptied Himself from being God.

Jesus prayed to God “not my will, but yours, be done” because Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42; John 5:30). They would have one will if Jesus and the Father are the same “one God.” Trinitarian doctrine claims that Luke is referring to the human will of Jesus, and not his divine will, but that is problematic because the Bible never says anything like that or even hints that Jesus had two wills in conflict with each other inside him allowing one to be human and the other to be divine.

 

[mikesw]

Jesus prayed to God “not my will, but yours, be done” because Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42; John 5:30). They would have one will if Jesus and the Father are the same “one God.” Trinitarian doctrine claims that Luke is referring to the human will of Jesus, and not his divine will, but that is problematic because the Bible never says anything like that or even hints that Jesus had two wills in conflict with each other inside him allowing one to be human and the other to be divine.

So we have a situation where Peterlag uses an argument from silence (i.e., that the bible does not describe Jesus speaking by human will instead of his divinity). Peterlag denies that divinity apparently based on his lack of understanding how God achieves divinity of Christ working within humanity. I'm not sure what other limitations Peterlag applies to God's ability. How does he decide God cannot things one way or another inasmuch as there is no logical reason that God would not operate in some specific metaphysical fashion?

 

[mikesw]

1. Jesus had two natures, a human nature and a divine nature. He was man and He was God. His mother was human but His Father was God. He was born of the Holy Spirit and the Father and Mary. Mat.1:18,20; Luke 1:35. Physically He had a beginning in Bethlehem. His spirit, however, was and is eternal. His spirit had no beginning and no end. Peter said that by His promises, we may partake of the divine nature. However, we were not born supernaturally as He was. 2 Peter 1:4
2. Jesus existed physically because the Father and the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary. His spirit, however, was and is eternal. Prior to His birth, John said He was called the Word. John 1:1,30; John 17:5
3. Jesus died physically only because He willingly took all the sins of mankind on Himself, and the wages of sin is death. Had He not done that, He never would have died. But His spirit never died. His spirit was and is eternal. Luke 23:46
4. As a human baby and child, He grew in wisdom. But in His spirit dwelt all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, and that is still true. Colossians 2:3 Peter knew this - John 21:17
5. As a human Jesus' physical strength was limited. But His spirit, being eternal, could do all things, and He still can.
By the way, it appears you changed the words "of Himself" to "by Himself" in John 5:19, which clearly changes the meaning, favoring your interpretation. Most versions, if not all, say "of Himself". Not only that, but you didn't quote the complete verse, so I will do that for you.
"Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing OF Himself, UNLESS it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner." And we know He ALWAYS saw what the Father was doing.
6. Physically, Jesus could only be in one place at a time. But His spirit, being God, was and is everywhere. John 1:48; John 11:14; Luke 10:18

Jesus, "Although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." Philippians 2:6-8

Temporarily, Jesus voluntarily "emptied Himself" of some of His privileges as God, but He never emptied Himself from being God.

Of course Peterlag knows these arguments. He just takes the humanity aspects of these descriptions and rejects the testimony of Christ's divinity. I do not know what his concepts are concerning a limited sense of God who is not able to interact within humanity. I do not know what Peterlag would say of Christ being in us (Colossians 1:27) and how that could even be acceptable in his theology. Maybe he would reduce that to mean people just think kindly of Christ Jesus, despite Paul calling this a mystery.

 

[dwight92070]

Jesus prayed to God “not my will, but yours, be done” because Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42; John 5:30). They would have one will if Jesus and the Father are the same “one God.” Trinitarian doctrine claims that Luke is referring to the human will of Jesus, and not his divine will, but that is problematic because the Bible never says anything like that or even hints that Jesus had two wills in conflict with each other inside him allowing one to be human and the other to be divine.

On the contrary, the very fact that Jesus asked the Father, "IF HE WAS WILLING, (to) remove this cup from Me" displays His human nature, even though we know He also had a divine nature. Yet, He continued the prayer, showing that even His human nature (and of course His divine nature) was willing to do what His Father wanted: "yet not My will, but Yours be done. Luke 22:42

Paul calls Jesus "the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God ..." 1 Tim. 1:17

 

[Peterlag]

On the contrary, the very fact that Jesus asked the Father, "IF HE WAS WILLING, (to) remove this cup from Me" displays His human nature, even though we know He also had a divine nature. Yet, He continued the prayer, showing that even His human nature (and of course His divine nature) was willing to do what His Father wanted: "yet not My will, but Yours be done. Luke 22:42

Paul calls Jesus "the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God ..." 1 Tim. 1:17

You don't see how insane (not normal) your concept is regarding Jesus praying to God is... and then saying he was praying to himself?

 

[mikesw]

You don't see how insane (not normal) your concept is regarding Jesus praying to God is... and then saying he was praying to himself?

We see that Peterlag knows how Christ as the incarnate Son would pray to God while Christ is among humanity. We are somehow wrong because Peterlag cannot understand it the way we do,.

 

[dwight92070]

You don't see how insane (not normal) your concept is regarding Jesus praying to God is... and then saying he was praying to himself?

My "insane" concept is called the Trinity - three persons, One God. If there are three persons, then obviously, they can speak to each other. What's insane is the amount of evidence that has been presented to you, and yet you STILL stubbornly reject it.

You're like the synagogue official who just witnessed Jesus heal a woman who had a sickness caused by a spirit, where she was bent over double for 18 years. Jesus just healed her and instead of rejoicing and amazement at the power of God, the official got mad that Jesus did this on the Sabbath day. He had NO concern for this woman All he cared about was that Jesus had just violated his legalistic understanding of the law.

You have NO concern for loving your fellow believers or even loving God- your only concern is your legalistic, false doctrine, and proving that you are right and that the rest of us are wrong.

 

[Peterlag]

My "insane" concept is called the Trinity - three persons, One God. If there are three persons, then obviously, they can speak to each other. What's insane is the amount of evidence that has been presented to you, and yet you STILL stubbornly reject it.

You're like the synagogue official who just witnessed Jesus heal a woman who had a sickness caused by a spirit, where she was bent over double for 18 years. Jesus just healed her and instead of rejoicing and amazement at the power of God, the official got mad that Jesus did this on the Sabbath day. He had NO concern for this woman All he cared about was that Jesus had just violated his legalistic understanding of the law.

You have NO concern for loving your fellow believers or even loving God- your only concern is your legalistic, false doctrine, and proving that you are right and that the rest of us are wrong.

It's my love for you guys that brought me here as I can see my wisdom is needed.

 

[Micaiah]

You're like the synagogue official who just witnessed Jesus heal a woman

How does this correspond to a Trinity denier?

 

[Peterlag]

How does this correspond to a Trinity denier?

What that is we see all over the world when someone can't win on the subject being discussed they then attack the other guy personally. This was even done to Jesus. Stuff like who are you to teach us a bastard child? We know your family and we know you can't teach us.

 

[Micaiah]

you would classify yourself as a unitarian correct, that only the Father is God ?

I am a Bible believer who believes scriptures like these:

“…God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them...” (2 Corinthians 5:19, KJV)

If the Trinity were a true biblical doctrine I imagine the apostle would have worded this scripture this way instead, “God was Christ…”

 

[Peterlag]

I am a Bible believer who believes scriptures like these:

“…God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them...” (2 Corinthians 5:19, KJV)

If the Trinity were a true biblical doctrine I imagine the apostle would have worded this scripture this way instead, “God was Christ…”

It just blows my mind on how many folks are hell bent on believing so many twisted taken out of context Scripture and then telling me I need to learn how to read the Bible.

 

[Frank Russell]

The Trinity is a glimpse into another dimension of reality, this is why no explanation will make sense until someone experiences the reality of said dimension.