The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth

[dwight92070]

Jesus Himself refers to the Trinity, although obviously not using that name and not giving further details:

"baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:19

Paul does the same thing:

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all." 2 Corinthians 13:14

 

[DavidTree]

There is not one verse that says Jesus is God the Son. Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not. Only in the minds of Catholics who cannot explain it.

Unbelief cannot see................

 

[Peterlag]

Unbelief cannot see................

You got that right.

 

[Peterlag]

Whatever the case may be (upper case or lower case), there are multiple Biblical passages that clearly depict the Personhood of the Holy Spirit. Here are just a few of those passages:

1. He has a Personal will. The Spirit breathes where He desires (John 3:8). "...His own will" (Heb 2:4).
2. He has His own Mind (1 Cor 2:11; Eph 4:30) and makes Personal Decisions (Acts 15:28, Acts 16:7)
3. He is Omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-8); All-Knowing (1 Corinthians 2:10-11); Creator (Luke 1:35); Savior (Titus 3:5); Addressed as God (Acts 5:3-4).
4. He is worshipped: "Praise of His Glory" (Eph 1:14).
5. He possesses command. He directs (Isaiah 40:13); sends out holy workers (Acts 13:1–4); distributes spiritual gifts to believers (1 Cor 12:11).
6. He is His own Personal entity as an Independent Witness (Acts 5:32).

There are many more passages if you want more....

It's like I'm talking to a wall. John 3:8 is referring to the spirit of God that is in all Christians. It's a lower case s... spirit. And not The Holy Spirit which is God. There's no extra Spirit that's another God.

 

[synergy]

It's like I'm talking to a wall.

You're projecting again.

John 3:8 is referring to the spirit of God that is in all Christians. It's a lower case s... spirit. And not The Holy Spirit which is God. There's no extra Spirit that's another God.

There's no "another God". Stop making up strawmen.

As for John 3:6-8, the subject is repeatedly "the Spirit". Do you understand English?

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.​

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.​

7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’​

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”​

Furthermore, there are multiple Biblical passages that clearly depict the Personhood of the Holy Spirit. Here are just a few of those passages:

1. He has a Personal will. The Spirit breathes where He desires (John 3:8). "...His own will" (Heb 2:4).
2. He has His own Mind (1 Cor 2:11; Eph 4:30) and makes Personal Decisions (Acts 15:28, Acts 16:7)
3. He is Omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-8); All-Knowing (1 Corinthians 2:10-11); Creator (Luke 1:35); Savior (Titus 3:5); Addressed as God (Acts 5:3-4).
4. He is worshipped: "Praise of His Glory" (Eph 1:14).
5. He possesses command. He directs (Isaiah 40:13); sends out holy workers (Acts 13:1–4); distributes spiritual gifts to believers (1 Cor 12:11).
6. He is His own Personal entity as an Independent Witness (Acts 5:32).

There are many more passages if you want more....

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You're projecting again.

There's no "another God". Stop making up strawmen.

As for John 3:6-8, the subject is repeatedly "the Spirit". Do you understand English?

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.​

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.​

7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’​

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”​

Furthermore, there are multiple Biblical passages that clearly depict the Personhood of the Holy Spirit. Here are just a few of those passages:

1. He has a Personal will. The Spirit breathes where He desires (John 3:8). "...His own will" (Heb 2:4).
2. He has His own Mind (1 Cor 2:11; Eph 4:30) and makes Personal Decisions (Acts 15:28, Acts 16:7)
3. He is Omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-8); All-Knowing (1 Corinthians 2:10-11); Creator (Luke 1:35); Savior (Titus 3:5); Addressed as God (Acts 5:3-4).
4. He is worshipped: "Praise of His Glory" (Eph 1:14).
5. He possesses command. He directs (Isaiah 40:13); sends out holy workers (Acts 13:1–4); distributes spiritual gifts to believers (1 Cor 12:11).
6. He is His own Personal entity as an Independent Witness (Acts 5:32).

There are many more passages if you want more....

God is presented in the Bible over and over as a personal God, with his own will and mind.
"God commanded this" "God sent someone", "God forgave" "God brought destruction", etc.

So, my question is: Is the will/mind of the Holy Spirit different or separate than the will and mind of God?

If it is not, then we are talking about the same person, God, and it is irrelevant any distinction between saying
"God guided me to choose Medicine and become a doctor" or
"The Holy Spirit guided me to choose Medicine and become a doctor"

Now, if the will or mind of the Holy Spirit is separate from the will and mind of God, then the Holy Spirit is not God, because it couldn't be All Knowing and All Powerful.
For example, the Holy Spirit would not be able to think exactly, at all times, what God is thinking. It could not take decisions that God is not taking at the same time in the same way. Therefore, the Holy Spirit would not be All-Knowing and All-Powerful.

Now, If the Holy Spirit is able to think exactly, at all times, what God thinks... and if the Holy Spirit does exactly what God does, and takes exactly the same decisions He takes, then there is no point in saying that the Holy Spirit is a different person. It is easier to say "The Holy Spirit is God". Period.

 

[DavidTree]

God is presented in the Bible over and over as a personal God, with his own will and mind.
"God commanded this" "God sent someone", "God forgave" "God brought destruction", etc.

So, my question is: Is the will/mind of the Holy Spirit different or separate than the will and mind of God?

If it is not, then we are talking about the same person, God, and it is irrelevant any distinction between saying
"God guided me to choose Medicine and become a doctor" or
"The Holy Spirit guided me to choose Medicine and become a doctor"

Now, if the will or mind of the Holy Spirit is separate from the will and mind of God, then the Holy Spirit is not God, because it couldn't be All Knowing and All Powerful.
For example, the Holy Spirit would not be able to think exactly, at all times, what God is thinking. It could not take decisions that God is not taking at the same time in the same way. Therefore, the Holy Spirit would not be All-Knowing and All-Powerful.

Now, If the Holy Spirit is able to think exactly, at all times, what God thinks... and if the Holy Spirit does exactly what God does, and takes exactly the same decisions He takes, then there is no point in saying that the Holy Spirit is a different person. It is easier to say "The Holy Spirit is God". Period.

It is impossible for man to know God unless God reveals Himself.

Therefore, in order for anyone to understand that which is unattainable (even by the collective body of man's intellect) we all must be brought to a Place where revelation of God is granted, since it cannot be earned.

Where is that Place?

 

[synergy]

God is presented in the Bible over and over as a personal God, with his own will and mind.
"God commanded this" "God sent someone", "God forgave" "God brought destruction", etc.

So, my question is: Is the will/mind of the Holy Spirit different or separate than the will and mind of God?

If it is not, then we are talking about the same person, God, and it is irrelevant any distinction between saying
"God guided me to choose Medicine and become a doctor" or
"The Holy Spirit guided me to choose Medicine and become a doctor"

Now, if the will or mind of the Holy Spirit is separate from the will and mind of God, then the Holy Spirit is not God, because it couldn't be All Knowing and All Powerful.
For example, the Holy Spirit would not be able to think exactly, at all times, what God is thinking. It could not take decisions that God is not taking at the same time in the same way. Therefore, the Holy Spirit would not be All-Knowing and All-Powerful.

Now, If the Holy Spirit is able to think exactly, at all times, what God thinks... and if the Holy Spirit does exactly what God does, and takes exactly the same decisions He takes, then there is no point in saying that the Holy Spirit is a different person. It is easier to say "The Holy Spirit is God". Period.

Excellent questions. If all three Persons of the Holy Trinity have deified wills (and they do) then there can exist one and only one divine will. It is impossible for deified Persons to have conflicting wills as we incorrigible humans display each and every second of our lives. The same thing for one divine mind and by extension one omniscience ability.

From https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/orthodox-doctrine-trinity/, I got the following:

The Scriptures associate distinctive works with each divine person; for example, the Father, creation; the Son, salvation; and the Spirit, sanctification. Yet Scripture also makes clear that the divine persons always work as one, or, as orthodoxy says, “inseparably,” because they are the one God. In the Bible, no divine act, work, or operation is ever depicted as the work of one divine person in isolation from the other two. The three persons baptize as one (Matt 28:19), bless as one (2 Cor 13:13), and minister through believers as one (1 Cor 12:4–6). Creation is a work of God involving the Father, Son, and Spirit (Gen 1:1; Ps 36:6; 104:30; John 1:2–3; Col. 1:16; Heb 1:10). So too are election (Matt 11:27; John 3:3–9; 6:70; 13:18; Acts 1:2, Rom. 8:29, Eph.1:4, 1 Peter 1:2) and salvation (John 3:1–6; Rom 8:1–30; 2 Cor 2:6; Eph 1:3–14). When it comes to divine rule, both the Father and the Son are named “Lord,” the supreme ruler, and, it would seem, the Holy Spirit as well (2 Cor 3:17). In the Book of Revelation, the Father and the Son rule from the one throne (Rev 5:13; 7:10). And on the last day, judgment is exercised by God the Father and God the Son (Ps 7:8; 9:7–8; Rom 2:16; Rev 16:7; Matt 25:31–32; John 5:27; Acts 10:42; Phil 2:10).​

 

[mikesw]

It's like I'm talking to a wall. John 3:8 is referring to the spirit of God that is in all Christians. It's a lower case s... spirit. And not The Holy Spirit which is God. There's no extra Spirit that's another God.

so you are saying the Spirit of God cannot be the Spirit of God. That gets kind of confusing. And after all this time you don't understand the Trinity and thus you complain there is no "spirit that's another god." That is hitting the strawman where it hurts the most.

 

[Peterlag]

so you are saying the Spirit of God cannot be the Spirit of God. That gets kind of confusing. And after all this time you don't understand the Trinity and thus you complain there is no "spirit that's another god." That is hitting the strawman where it hurts the most.

I'm not complaining. I'm here to help. I have the spirit of God in me. I am not God. I don't have God in me. It's His spirit. Not Him. Do you understand this basic foundational truth?

 

[mikesw]

I'm not complaining. I'm here to help. I have the spirit of God in me. I am not God. I don't have God in me. It's His spirit. Not Him. Do you understand this basic foundational truth?

maybe not quite yet. You are saying you have aspect of God in you but He is not in you. And you have blood cells in you but you do not have blood in you. I think the foundational truth I'm hearing from you is that you don't understand what you are saying.

 

[synergy]

maybe not quite yet. You are saying you have aspect of God in you but He is not in you. And you have blood cells in you but you do not have blood in you. I think the foundational truth I'm hearing from you is that you don't understand what you are saying.

Reminds me of Biden.

 

[Peterlag]

maybe not quite yet. You are saying you have aspect of God in you but He is not in you. And you have blood cells in you but you do not have blood in you. I think the foundational truth I'm hearing from you is that you don't understand what you are saying.

Maybe you are new to Christianity so let me see if I can help. When Christians get born again they receive the spirit from Christ. It's God's spirit that is many times also referred to as the spirit of Christ or the holy spirit or spirit. It's not God that the Christian is receiving. The Christian does not become God or get God to be in them.

Colossians 1:27
“To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:”

 

[mikesw]

Maybe you are new to Christianity so let me see if I can help. When Christians get born again they receive the spirit from Christ. It's God's spirit that is many times also referred to as the spirit of Christ or the holy spirit or spirit. It's not God that the Christian is receiving. The Christian does not become God or get God to be in them.

Colossians 1:27
“To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:”

You still sound totally confused.

 

[synergy]

Maybe you are new to Christianity so let me see if I can help. When Christians get born again they receive the spirit from Christ. It's God's spirit that is many times also referred to as the spirit of Christ or the holy spirit or spirit. It's not God that the Christian is receiving.

So if we're not receiving the Divine Spirit (aka: the Holy Spirit) then what Spirit are we actually receiving? An angelic spirit, a new age spirit, a seance spirit, what spirit?

The Christian does not become God or get God to be in them.

Nobody said we "become God". Stop making up strawmen.

 

[Peterlag]

You still sound totally confused.

I'm not confused, but I'm starting to think you are not walking in the spirit. I know the fruit of the spirit and you are not into it. More of a deception and lies and twisting and spinning.

 

[mikesw]

I'm not confused, but I'm starting to think you are not walking in the spirit. I know the fruit of the spirit and you are not into it. More of a deception and lies and twisting and spinning.

If the identification of your logic is called "spinning," it gets confusing what you are trying to do here. I could try to avoid showing the logic of what you are saying, but that would not help establish the truth in scripture. Maybe you could just say that it was pure stupidity of the devil to elevate Christ by pointing out Christ's divinity.

 

[Peterlag]

So if we're not receiving the Divine Spirit (aka: the Holy Spirit) then what Spirit are we actually receiving? An angelic spirit, a new age spirit, a seance spirit, what spirit?

Nobody said we "become God". Stop making up strawmen.

I'm not making up straw man. Somebody said and I think it was you that John 3:8 is referring to the Trinity. I'm saying the word "spirit" there is not referring to the trinity.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[synergy]

I'm not making up straw man. Somebody said and I think it was you that John 3:8 is referring to the Trinity. I'm saying the word "spirit" there is not referring to the trinity.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

You made a statement below. To whom are you directing it to?

The Christian does not become God

 

[Peterlag]

If the identification of your logic is called "spinning," it gets confusing what you are trying to do here. I could try to avoid showing the logic of what you are saying, but that would not help establish the truth in scripture. Maybe you could just say that it was pure stupidity of the devil to elevate Christ by pointing out Christ's divinity.

It's not stupid to say that the trinity is not from God but something from the devil to trick Christians into not knowing the truth. You do not agree. Fine. But I'm not attacking you personally like you are me. The devil tried to drag Jesus down from being the Messiah. But he could not. So he pushed him up and made him God. You think that is nonsense because you bought the devil's lie. Fine. I did not.