The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth

[synergy]

In Spanish and English we sometimes use that expression metaphorically, in the same way we say "human condition", "human progress", "human destiny", etc.
But obviously, each person enjoys or suffers his own condition, is accountable for his own progress and will face his own destiny.
In the case of will, the fact that there is no single human will is clearly manifested in that every person can make his own choice and will be judged and rewarded by God according to his own deeds.
We believe in individual salvation, don't we? Well, Individual salvation is based on the concept of one person = one will.

In conclusion, the entire human race is not one person precisely because it is composed by billions of wills. One person = one will.

Of course everyone makes his own personal choice. That doesn't mean that there are multiple human wills. In fact we never say 'human wills". It sounds strange in English for valid reasons that cannot be dismissed.

 

[dwight92070]

I am working on defense commenting on what people post because my stuff is so strong that nobody can discuss it. They just then attack me personally. Here's an example...

The Old Testament prophecies about the coming Messiah foretold that he would be a human being who would be the offspring of Eve (Genesis 3:15); a descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18); a descendant of Judah (Genesis 49:10; a prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15); a son of David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 11:1); a king ruling under Yahweh (Psalm 110:1); and a ruler from among the people of Israel (Jeremiah 30:21). That explains why the people were all expecting a human Messiah. Psalm 110:1 merits special attention because it's especially clear but has been misunderstood and misrepresented by most English versions that read “The LORD says to my Lord….” The word “LORD” is Yahweh, but many Trinitarian commentators argue that “my Lord” in this verse is the Hebrew word "adonai" that is another name for God, and that would provide proof of the divinity of the Messiah. But the Hebrew text does not use "adonai" but rather "adoni" which is always used in Scripture to describe human masters and lords, but never God.

The Old Testament refers to the Messiah as “one like a son of man” and the phrase “son of man” was a Semitic idiom for a human being and it's used that way throughout the Old Testament. The phrase “son of man” also became a title of the Messiah when Daniel referred to him as “one like a son of man” (Daniel 7:13) and that explains why Jesus called himself “the son of man” many times. The use of the “son of man” in reference to the Messiah is one more piece of evidence that Jesus was fully human and one more reason that people were expecting the Messiah to be human. The New Testament teaches Jesus was a man and Jesus himself said he was “a man who has told you the truth” John 8:40. Jesus was not being disingenuous and hiding his “divine nature” but rather was making a factual statement that reinforced what the Jews were expecting of the Messiah—that he would be a fully human man.

The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”

Then you haven't read much of Paul's writings.

 

[Peterlag]

Then you haven't read much of Paul's writings.

See I post 3 sold paragraphs of biblical data about the trinity and you make it about me and not what I wrote. Understand Now?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Of course everyone makes his own personal choice. That doesn't mean that there are multiple human wills. In fact we never say 'human wills". It sounds strange in English for valid reasons that cannot be dismissed.

Does it sound strange to you to say that every person has one and only one will? How come?
You know that each human being has its own will, for the sole reason that every person has his own mind.
Do you also pretend to say that there is only one human mind?

God has One Mind or else He is not a personal God.

 

[mikesw]

Does it sound strange to you to say that every person has one and only one will? How come?
You know that each human being has its own will, for the sole reason that every person has his own mind.
Do you also pretend to say that there is only one human mind?

God has One Mind or else He is not a personal God.

People hold to that idea that Jesus cannot have multiple wills because they lack understanding of scripture. That lack of understanding was on was one reason many people might have accepted unscriptural slavery in the South. But we see what Christ could face when knowing he would offer his life for our sins. Rom 8:6-7 The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
People like Peterlan do not understand details like that. It makes good sense to recognize that Christ suffered greatly in the flesh and despite his divinity he had to have counter the mind of the flesh that would not be accepting that suffering. It also is great speculation to say what God can or cannot do as incarnate man, unless we assemble the ideas across scripture. It gets worse when someone is trying to mix together conflicting religions and gods

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

People hold to that idea that Jesus cannot have multiple wills because they lack understanding of scripture.

When Jesus referred to his own will, he referred to it as one single will.

Rom 8:6-7 The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

In Romans 8:6.7, Paul is not saying that I have two minds.
He says that my mind can be set on the things of the spirit, and be a mind of the spirit, or set on the things of the flesh, and be "a carnal mind" ("carnal" means flesh).
It is my choice if I live "spiritually minded" or "carnally minded". It is my choice and I can't have it both ways... Why? Because I have only one mind, one will.

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. To be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace, for the carnal mind is hostile toward God, for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can it be, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if through the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (8:13)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Christ suffered greatly in the flesh and despite his divinity he had to have counter the mind of the flesh that would not be accepting that suffering.

Christ never had "the mind of the flesh". He was always spiritually minded.
His mind, his only mind, was set in the things of God.
His will, his only will, was set in submitting to God's will.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I am working on defense commenting on what people post because my stuff is so strong that nobody can discuss it. They just then attack me personally. Here's an example...

The Old Testament prophecies about the coming Messiah foretold that he would be a human being who would be the offspring of Eve (Genesis 3:15); a descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18); a descendant of Judah (Genesis 49:10; a prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15); a son of David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 11:1); a king ruling under Yahweh (Psalm 110:1); and a ruler from among the people of Israel (Jeremiah 30:21). That explains why the people were all expecting a human Messiah. Psalm 110:1 merits special attention because it's especially clear but has been misunderstood and misrepresented by most English versions that read “The LORD says to my Lord….” The word “LORD” is Yahweh, but many Trinitarian commentators argue that “my Lord” in this verse is the Hebrew word "adonai" that is another name for God, and that would provide proof of the divinity of the Messiah. But the Hebrew text does not use "adonai" but rather "adoni" which is always used in Scripture to describe human masters and lords, but never God.

The Old Testament refers to the Messiah as “one like a son of man” and the phrase “son of man” was a Semitic idiom for a human being and it's used that way throughout the Old Testament. The phrase “son of man” also became a title of the Messiah when Daniel referred to him as “one like a son of man” (Daniel 7:13) and that explains why Jesus called himself “the son of man” many times. The use of the “son of man” in reference to the Messiah is one more piece of evidence that Jesus was fully human and one more reason that people were expecting the Messiah to be human. The New Testament teaches Jesus was a man and Jesus himself said he was “a man who has told you the truth” John 8:40. Jesus was not being disingenuous and hiding his “divine nature” but rather was making a factual statement that reinforced what the Jews were expecting of the Messiah—that he would be a fully human man.

The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”

Thanks for your insightful comments, Peterlag.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Then you haven't read much of Paul's writings.

I have read much of Paul's writings.
I have noticed he repeatedly separates God from Jesus Christ.
I'm not talking about 3 verses. I'm not talking about 6. I'm not talking about 12. When I say "repeatedly", I mean it

For example, just in the letter to Romans... just in that single letter, I can show you 24 instances.
By the way, in one of those instances, Paul also calls Jesus "a man", just as he did talking to the people of Athens, as @Peterlag has quoted.

 

[Peterlag]

I have read much of Paul's writings.
I have noticed he repeatedly separates God from Jesus Christ.
I'm not talking about 3 verses. I'm not talking about 6. I'm not talking about 12. When I say "repeatedly", I mean it

For example, just in the letter to Romans... just in that single letter, I can show you 24 instances.
By the way, in one of those instances, Paul also calls Jesus "a man", just as he did talking to the people of Athens, as @Peterlag has quoted.

They are both mentioned often because Jesus has a God. God does not have a God. The Bible teaches that God is the “head” of Christ. “But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God” (1 Corinthians 11:3). The Trinitarian explanation of this verse is that God was the head of Christ only while he was on the earth, but the Bible never says that. In fact, the Bible shows us the opposite: God is still the head of Christ and directing him even after he ascended into heaven. God can be seen to be greater than the Messiah in Psalm 2 when God’s Messiah is called “his anointed” and God says “I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill." The Messiah is not being shown to be a co-equal ruler with God, but God’s under-ruler. God says He fathered the Messiah: “You are my Son; today I have begotten you." It's clear the Messiah was begotten at a specific time in history and that means he's not “eternally begotten” even if commentators argue about which day “today” refers to.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I want to correct my estimation of the verses in which Paul makes a clear distinction between God and Jesus. I had said 24, but I erred in my maths. They are 20, and I'm quoting them below.

• To start with, in the very introduction of the epistle, Paul lays the cards on the table. He identifies God as "our Father" (1:7), not as Jesus.
• In Romans 5:15, Paul calls Jesus "a man", but he calls God "God".
• In many of them, Jesus is presented as a vehicle, an instrument of God, using the prepositions "through", "in" or "in behalf of".
• And if there is any doubt left, in Romans 15:6, Paul explicitly says that Jesus has a God, who is his Father. So, if someone wants to know who is God according to Paul, we can confidently answer: God is the Father of Jesus... our Father.

1. Romans 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2. Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
3. Romans 2:16 in the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Jesus Christ.
4. Romans 3:22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all and upon all who believe, for there is no distinction.
5. Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
6. Romans 5:11 Furthermore, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
7. Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if through the trespass of one man many died, then how much more has the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
8. Romans 6:11 Likewise, you also consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
9. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
10. Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, with my mind, I serve the law of God, but with my flesh, the law of sin.
11. Romans 8:17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified with Him.
12. Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, yes, who is risen, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
13. Romans 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
14. Romans 14:18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
15. Romans 15:6 so that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
16. Romans 15:7 Therefore welcome one another, just as Christ also welcomed us, for the glory of God.
17. Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcised on behalf of the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs,
18. Romans 15:17 In Christ Jesus therefore I have reason to boast in my service to God.
19. Romans 15:30 Now I ask you, brothers, through the Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,
20. Romans 16:27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This was just Romans.
Is someone interested in exploring the rest of the epistles to discover how Paul treats God and Jesus Christ when present on the same sentence?
Is someone interested in challenging any of the 20 quotes posted so far?
I have no problem in going one by one.

 

[Peterlag]

I want to correct my estimation of the verses in which Paul makes a clear distinction between God and Jesus. I had said 24, but I erred in my maths. They are 20, and I'm quoting them below.

• To start with, in the very introduction of the epistle, Paul lays the cards on the table. He identifies God as "our Father" (1:7), not as Jesus.
• In Romans 5:15, Paul calls Jesus "a man", but he calls God "God".
• In many of them, Jesus is presented as a vehicle, an instrument of God, using the prepositions "through", "in" or "in behalf of".
• And if there is any doubt left, in Romans 15:6, Paul explicitly says that Jesus has a God, who is his Father. So, if someone wants to know who is God according to Paul, we can confidently answer: God is the Father of Jesus... our Father.

1. Romans 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2. Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
3. Romans 2:16 in the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Jesus Christ.
4. Romans 3:22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all and upon all who believe, for there is no distinction.
5. Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
6. Romans 5:11 Furthermore, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
7. Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if through the trespass of one man many died, then how much more has the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
8. Romans 6:11 Likewise, you also consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
9. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
10. Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, with my mind, I serve the law of God, but with my flesh, the law of sin.
11. Romans 8:17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified with Him.
12. Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, yes, who is risen, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
13. Romans 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
14. Romans 14:18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
15. Romans 15:6 so that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
16. Romans 15:7 Therefore welcome one another, just as Christ also welcomed us, for the glory of God.
17. Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcised on behalf of the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs,
18. Romans 15:17 In Christ Jesus therefore I have reason to boast in my service to God.
19. Romans 15:30 Now I ask you, brothers, through the Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,
20. Romans 16:27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

What you list in these 20 verses is the whole gospel of Jesus Christ that is rejected by Christians. Do you have any idea how huge of a problem this is?

 

[dwight92070]

I want to correct my estimation of the verses in which Paul makes a clear distinction between God and Jesus. I had said 24, but I erred in my maths. They are 20, and I'm quoting them below.

• To start with, in the very introduction of the epistle, Paul lays the cards on the table. He identifies God as "our Father" (1:7), not as Jesus.
• In Romans 5:15, Paul calls Jesus "a man", but he calls God "God".
• In many of them, Jesus is presented as a vehicle, an instrument of God, using the prepositions "through", "in" or "in behalf of".
• And if there is any doubt left, in Romans 15:6, Paul explicitly says that Jesus has a God, who is his Father. So, if someone wants to know who is God according to Paul, we can confidently answer: God is the Father of Jesus... our Father.

1. Romans 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2. Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
3. Romans 2:16 in the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Jesus Christ.
4. Romans 3:22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all and upon all who believe, for there is no distinction.
5. Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
6. Romans 5:11 Furthermore, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
7. Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if through the trespass of one man many died, then how much more has the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
8. Romans 6:11 Likewise, you also consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
9. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
10. Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, with my mind, I serve the law of God, but with my flesh, the law of sin.
11. Romans 8:17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified with Him.
12. Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, yes, who is risen, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
13. Romans 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
14. Romans 14:18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
15. Romans 15:6 so that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
16. Romans 15:7 Therefore welcome one another, just as Christ also welcomed us, for the glory of God.
17. Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcised on behalf of the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs,
18. Romans 15:17 In Christ Jesus therefore I have reason to boast in my service to God.
19. Romans 15:30 Now I ask you, brothers, through the Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,
20. Romans 16:27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

I want to correct my estimation of the verses in which Paul makes a clear distinction between God and Jesus. I had said 24, but I erred in my maths. They are 20, and I'm quoting them below.

• To start with, in the very introduction of the epistle, Paul lays the cards on the table. He identifies God as "our Father" (1:7), not as Jesus.
• In Romans 5:15, Paul calls Jesus "a man", but he calls God "God".
• In many of them, Jesus is presented as a vehicle, an instrument of God, using the prepositions "through", "in" or "in behalf of".
• And if there is any doubt left, in Romans 15:6, Paul explicitly says that Jesus has a God, who is his Father. So, if someone wants to know who is God according to Paul, we can confidently answer: God is the Father of Jesus... our Father.

1. Romans 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2. Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
3. Romans 2:16 in the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Jesus Christ.
4. Romans 3:22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all and upon all who believe, for there is no distinction.
5. Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
6. Romans 5:11 Furthermore, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
7. Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if through the trespass of one man many died, then how much more has the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
8. Romans 6:11 Likewise, you also consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
9. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
10. Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, with my mind, I serve the law of God, but with my flesh, the law of sin.
11. Romans 8:17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified with Him.
12. Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, yes, who is risen, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
13. Romans 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
14. Romans 14:18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
15. Romans 15:6 so that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
16. Romans 15:7 Therefore welcome one another, just as Christ also welcomed us, for the glory of God.
17. Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcised on behalf of the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs,
18. Romans 15:17 In Christ Jesus therefore I have reason to boast in my service to God.
19. Romans 15:30 Now I ask you, brothers, through the Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,
20. Romans 16:27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

You said, "So, if someone wants to know who is God according to Paul, we can confidently answer: God is the Father of Jesus... our Father."

So you will just ignore who God is according to Paul, outside of the book of Romans?

1 Tim. 6:14-15 " ... until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time - He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings, and Lord of lords, ..."

If there's any doubt who the King of kings and Lord of lords is, Revelation 17:14 makes it quite clear: " ... and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings."

Before I go on to other words of Paul, maybe you could show us from these verses how Jesus is not God?

 

[mikesw]

I want to correct my estimation of the verses in which Paul makes a clear distinction between God and Jesus. I had said 24, but I erred in my maths. They are 20, and I'm quoting them below.

• To start with, in the very introduction of the epistle, Paul lays the cards on the table. He identifies God as "our Father" (1:7), not as Jesus.
• In Romans 5:15, Paul calls Jesus "a man", but he calls God "God".
• In many of them, Jesus is presented as a vehicle, an instrument of God, using the prepositions "through", "in" or "in behalf of".
• And if there is any doubt left, in Romans 15:6, Paul explicitly says that Jesus has a God, who is his Father. So, if someone wants to know who is God according to Paul, we can confidently answer: God is the Father of Jesus... our Father.

1. Romans 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2. Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
3. Romans 2:16 in the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Jesus Christ.
4. Romans 3:22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all and upon all who believe, for there is no distinction.
5. Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
6. Romans 5:11 Furthermore, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
7. Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if through the trespass of one man many died, then how much more has the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
8. Romans 6:11 Likewise, you also consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
9. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
10. Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, with my mind, I serve the law of God, but with my flesh, the law of sin.
11. Romans 8:17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified with Him.
12. Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, yes, who is risen, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
13. Romans 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
14. Romans 14:18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
15. Romans 15:6 so that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
16. Romans 15:7 Therefore welcome one another, just as Christ also welcomed us, for the glory of God.
17. Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcised on behalf of the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs,
18. Romans 15:17 In Christ Jesus therefore I have reason to boast in my service to God.
19. Romans 15:30 Now I ask you, brothers, through the Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,
20. Romans 16:27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

whoa. That undoes all the passages that show the divinity of Christ -- ok maybe that is a bad summary of the testimony of these verses. All this shows is that if you were on an island and never had the broad testimony of scriptures, you might not recognize the divinity of Christ. Paul addresses the letters to the anticipated recipients -- like many people do in letters the write (or posts they do in forums). You found that Peterlag was gullible to this argument.

Anyhow, Paul does not have to share the divinity of Christ in the letter if that is not the issue he is addressing. Paul has not preached among the Roman gentiles and thus could choose to write more narrowly according to what he thinks they will understand when addressing their situation. Thus, we have no argument against the divinity of Christ here. We just have testimony that letters are written to the audience and their needs.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You said, "So, if someone wants to know who is God according to Paul, we can confidently answer: God is the Father of Jesus... our Father."

So you will just ignore who God is according to Paul, outside of the book of Romans?

In my post 252, I'm asking if anyone is interested in exploring the rest of the epistles beyond Romans.
Look below.
Are you interested?

But then what do you think about those 20 verses already posted?
I'm asking this because I might bring from other epistles other 20 to make a total of 40, but... if you are not persuaded by those 20, would 40 be enough for you to admit that Paul thought that Jesus and God were two different beings? Or would you ask for more? How many more?

This was just Romans.
Is someone interested in exploring the rest of the epistles to discover how Paul treats God and Jesus Christ when present on the same sentence?
Is someone interested in challenging any of the 20 quotes posted so far?
I have no problem in going one by one.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Anyhow, Paul does not have to share the divinity of Christ in the letter if that is not the issue he is addressing.

This sounds reasonable... but then... why would Paul not address the issue of the deity of Christ across all the epistle to Romans, is this is so central to Christian faith and, according to some, so essential for salvation? In the epistle of Romans Paul speaks a lot about justification, salvation, faith in Christ, etc. So, why would Paul skip such a fundamental doctrine?

Perhaps because he did address the issue in other epistles?
If such is the case, we will find sentences that are very different to the 20 ones written in Romans, right?
Of course, if that's the case, we would still need to reconcile why Paul seems to have a totally different point of view in Romans.
But we can explore and see what we find.

So, why don't you take a ride with me through the rest of the epistles?

 

[dwight92070]

In my post 252, I'm asking if anyone is interested in exploring the rest of the epistles beyond Romans.
Look below.
Are you interested?

But then what do you think about those 20 verses already posted?
I'm asking this because I might bring from other epistles other 20 to make a total of 40, but... if you are not persuaded by those 20, would 40 be enough for you to admit that Paul thought that Jesus and God were two different beings? Or would you ask for more? How many more?

I have already explored all of the New Testament and I'm not against doing it again, but the point you're making does not go against the Trinity teaching anyway. None of the 20 verses negate the Trinity, nor was Paul denying that Jesus and the Father were distinct from each other. The Trinity says that the 3 persons of the Godhead are distinct or separate from one another, and yet they are each God.
But I responded to you in #254 with the verse in 1 Timothy 6. Are you going to explain to me how these verses are NOT saying that Jesus is God?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I have already explored all of the New Testament and I'm not against doing it again, but the point you're making does not go against the Trinity teaching anyway. None of the 20 verses negate the Trinity, nor was Paul denying that Jesus and the Father were distinct from each other.

These verses show something more:
1) That Jesus is different from God. They are treated as separate persons. So, Jesus can’t be God.
2) That the exalted Jesus has his God. So, Jesus can’t be God

Do you agree with the two statements above? If not, I beg you to explain.

The Trinity says that the 3 persons of the Godhead are distinct or separate from one another, and yet they are each God.

But the Trinity does not say that God is distinct from Jesus, which is what Paul shows repeatedly.
It says that the Father is distinct and separate, and that the Holy Spirit is distinct and separate.

But I responded to you in #254 with the verse in 1 Timothy 6. Are you going to explain to me how these verses are NOT saying that Jesus is God?

Sure. We can start with Timothy tomorrow.
Good night, my friends.

 

[synergy]

These verses show something more:
1) That Jesus is different from God. They are treated as separate persons. So, Jesus can’t be God.
2) That the exalted Jesus has his God. So, Jesus can’t be God

Do you agree with the two statements above? If not, I beg you to explain.

Just read John 1:1 without your presuppositions clouding your vision.

But the Trinity does not say that God is distinct from Jesus, which is what Paul shows repeatedly.
It says that the Father is distinct and separate, and that the Holy Spirit is distinct and separate.

They are distinct Persons. Not distinct Gods. We are not Polytheists.