The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth

[mikesw]

Here’s what I hear in your post:

YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE HOLY BIBLE ON YOUR OWN. FIND A MAN THAT WILL TEACH YOU WHAT ITS REALLY SAYING.

I rebuke that wisdom!

It is written:

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17, KJV)

now you admit you are dull of hearing.

The first thing to note here is that this was instruction to Tim on how to oversee and teach people. So people were supposed to give significance to what he saw fit when encountering problems.
For your situation, the first scripture for correction is that pride comes before the fall. Another one for you to consider is that there is a way that seems right to a man but in the end is death (prov 14:12). Maybe there are tamer verses possible, but this will help get us started.

My point is not that you have to trust every teacher today. There are more bad teachings that have arisen in recent years. But just because there are bad outside influences, that does not mean that your understanding is automatically correct. And I often mention that if someone has something better than the trinitarian conception of God and his work of reconciliation of people to himself, that can be argued and we might all convert to that clearer theory.

 

[Micaiah]

pride comes before the fall.

It’s not prideful to stand on the words of God in the Holy Bible. But it’s quite prideful and dangerous to persuade a Bible believer to seek further beyond the holy scriptures…

there is a way that seems right to a man but in the end is death (prov 14:12)

So, let me get this straight:

Reading the Bible, protecting oneself from heretics with the Bible… is a way that seems right but isn’t? Is a way that leads to death?

Are you serious?

 

[mikesw]

It’s not prideful to stand on the words of God in the Holy Bible. But it’s quite prideful and dangerous to persuade a Bible believer to seek further beyond the holy scriptures…



So, let me get this straight:

Reading the Bible, protecting oneself from heretics with the Bible… is a way that seems right but isn’t? Is a way that leads to death?

Are you serious?

You sounded better when you did not post anything. Why do you even post here if you feel that no one should be interested in seeking "further beyond the holy scriptures?" Your participation here is contradictory to your beliefs.
I can clarify that last point by asking why you would suggest I listen to you if you are telling use the ideal is just to seek holy scriptures. You should just tell people not to listen to you.

 

[Micaiah]

You sounded better when you did not post anything.

How did we go from discussing the Trinity to accusations of illiteracy?

When I effectively exposed the veracity of the Trinity with the plainly written word of God then accusations of Bible translation issues, and language barriers, and education levels popped up.

If questionable doctrines cannot be defended against with the Bible alone, then all doctrines can be true regardless of what the Bible says on its face.

Any crafty smooth talkin’ Greek scholar can teach you whatever he wants. Then it becomes a matter of which teacher you prefer. Not what the Bible says.

 

[mikesw]

How did we go from discussing the Trinity to accusations of illiteracy?

When I effectively exposed the veracity of the Trinity with the plainly written word of God then accusations of Bible translation issues, and language barriers, and education levels popped up.

If questionable doctrines cannot be defended against with the Bible alone, then all doctrines can be true regardless of what the Bible says on its face.

Any crafty smooth talkin’ Greek scholar can teach you whatever he wants. Then it becomes a matter of which teacher you prefer. Not what the Bible says.

Did you find a conception of illiteracy about yourself despite that not even being mentioned by me? I note that people miss basic issues of reading comprehension and thus can be informed by others who are pointing out these weaknesses. I also pointed out your self-contradiction in posting ideas in this forum when your principle is that people should only read scriptures. The natural corollary is that people should not ready what you post.
I have acknowledged that there are bad teachers around but that also can indicate that there are people who think they understand scripture but their understanding also is incorrect.

 

[Micaiah]

I also pointed out your self-contradiction in posting ideas in this forum when your principle is that people should only read scriptures

I haven’t posted my ideas.

I posted what the scriptures say and showed how they relate.

I have acknowledged that there are bad teachers around but that also can indicate that there are people who think they understand scripture but their understanding also is incorrect.

Anyone can understand scripture.

But when they seek for things outside the realms righteousness then they get into the weeds with things that aren’t necessary in pleasing God.

The Trinity is one of those uncertain and unnecessary things.

 

[mikesw]

I haven’t posted my ideas.

I posted what the scriptures say and showed how they relate.



Anyone can understand scripture.

But when they seek for things outside the realms righteousness then they get into the weeds with things that aren’t necessary in pleasing God.

The Trinity is one of those uncertain and unnecessary things.

You did not understand simple logic. There is no reason for you to share here even if all you shared were scriptures since you, as editor, would be creating a post that has human-intervention and thus bias or teaching. Hence, you are inconsistent to say we should only look to scripture.
Also, if anyone can understand scripture, you should be recognizing that what i say is correct understanding. Plus, you need to be open to correction and reproof -- which thus far seem unacceptable to you.

 

[Peterlag]

There are many descriptions, titles, and names for God in the Bible and I would like to add God’s proper name is “Yahweh”which occurs more than 6,000 times in the Hebrew Old Testament and is generally translated as “LORD.” But God is also referred to as Elohim, Adonai, El Shaddai, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel, Father, Shield, and by many more designations. Furthermore, God is holy (Leviticus 11:44), which is why He was called “the Holy One” (the Hebrew text uses the singular adjective “holy” to designate “the Holy One." He is also spirit (John 4:24). It makes perfect sense since God is holy and God is spirit that “Holy”and “Spirit” are sometimes combined and used as one of the many designations for God. Thus, the Hebrew or Greek words for the "HOLY SPIRIT" should be brought into English as the "Holy Spirit”when the subject of a verse is God.

None of the dozens of descriptions, titles, or names of God are believed to be a separate, co-equal “Person”in a triune God except for the “HOLY SPIRIT” and there is no solid biblical reason to make the "Holy Spirit” into a separate “Person.” In other contexts the “HOLY SPIRIT” refers to the gift of God’s nature that He placed on people and the new birth to the Christian, and in those contexts it should be translated as the “holy spirit." God placed a form of His nature which is“holy spirit” upon people when He wanted to spiritually empower them because our natural fleshly human bodies do not have spirit power of their own. This holy spirit nature of God was a gift from God to humankind and we see this in the case of Acts 2:38 when the spirit is specifically called a "gift" when given to the Christian.

We have no evidence in the Bible that “the Holy Spirit” was ever used as a name because no one ever used it in a direct address. Many people spoke or prayed directly to God, starting out by saying “O Yahweh” (translated as “O LORD” in almost all English versions). Furthermore, the name “Jesus” is a Greek form of the name“Joshua” (in fact, the King James Version confuses “Joshua” and “Jesus”in Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8) and many people spoke “to Jesus” in the Bible. But no one in the Bible ever used “the Holy Spirit” in a direct address because there's simply no actual name for any “Person” known as “the Holy Spirit” anywhere in the Bible.

 

[synergy]

There are many descriptions, titles, and names for God in the Bible and I would like to add God’s proper name is “Yahweh”which occurs more than 6,000 times in the Hebrew Old Testament and is generally translated as “LORD.” But God is also referred to as Elohim, Adonai, El Shaddai, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel, Father, Shield, and by many more designations. Furthermore, God is holy (Leviticus 11:44), which is why He was called “the Holy One” (the Hebrew text uses the singular adjective “holy” to designate “the Holy One." He is also spirit (John 4:24). It makes perfect sense since God is holy and God is spirit that “Holy”and “Spirit” are sometimes combined and used as one of the many designations for God. Thus, the Hebrew or Greek words for the "HOLY SPIRIT" should be brought into English as the "Holy Spirit”when the subject of a verse is God.

None of the dozens of descriptions, titles, or names of God are believed to be a separate, co-equal “Person”in a triune God except for the “HOLY SPIRIT” and there is no solid biblical reason to make the "Holy Spirit” into a separate “Person.” In other contexts the “HOLY SPIRIT” refers to the gift of God’s nature that He placed on people and the new birth to the Christian, and in those contexts it should be translated as the “holy spirit." God placed a form of His nature which is“holy spirit” upon people when He wanted to spiritually empower them because our natural fleshly human bodies do not have spirit power of their own. This holy spirit nature of God was a gift from God to humankind and we see this in the case of Acts 2:38 when the spirit is specifically called a "gift" when given to the Christian.

We have no evidence in the Bible that “the Holy Spirit” was ever used as a name because no one ever used it in a direct address. Many people spoke or prayed directly to God, starting out by saying “O Yahweh” (translated as “O LORD” in almost all English versions). Furthermore, the name “Jesus” is a Greek form of the name“Joshua” (in fact, the King James Version confuses “Joshua” and “Jesus”in Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8) and many people spoke “to Jesus” in the Bible. But no one in the Bible ever used “the Holy Spirit” in a direct address because there's simply no actual name for any “Person” known as “the Holy Spirit” anywhere in the Bible.

The Holy Spirit is definitely a Divine Person as proven by the following passages:

1. He has a Personal will. "The Spirit breathes where He desires" (John 3:8). "...His own will" (Heb 2:4).
2. He has His own Mind (1 Cor 2:11; Eph 4:30) and makes Personal Decisions (Acts 15:28, Acts 16:7)
3. He is Omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-8); All-Knowing (1 Corinthians 2:10-11); Creator (Luke 1:35); Savior (Titus 3:5); Addressed as God (Acts 5:3-4).
4. He is worshipped: "Praise of His Glory" (Eph 1:14).
5. He possesses command. He directs (Isaiah 40:13); sends out holy workers (Acts 13:1–4); distributes spiritual gifts to believers (1 Cor 12:11).
6. He is His own Personal entity as an Independent Witness (Acts 5:32).

There are many more verses if you want more....

 

[civic]

I’m neither of those.

I’m a Bible believing Christian.

That’s all.

you would classify yourself as a unitarian correct, that only the Father is God ?

 

[Peterlag]

The Holy Spirit is definitely a Divine Person as proven by the following passages:

1. He has a Personal will. "The Spirit breathes where He desires" (John 3:8). "...His own will" (Heb 2:4).
2. He has His own Mind (1 Cor 2:11; Eph 4:30) and makes Personal Decisions (Acts 15:28, Acts 16:7)
3. He is Omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-8); All-Knowing (1 Corinthians 2:10-11); Creator (Luke 1:35); Savior (Titus 3:5); Addressed as God (Acts 5:3-4).
4. He is worshipped: "Praise of His Glory" (Eph 1:14).
5. He possesses command. He directs (Isaiah 40:13); sends out holy workers (Acts 13:1–4); distributes spiritual gifts to believers (1 Cor 12:11).
6. He is His own Personal entity as an Independent Witness (Acts 5:32).

There are many more verses if you want more....

You do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. John 3:8 is referring to the spirit of Christ that all Christians have and not some Spirit person who is also God.

 

[civic]

You do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. John 3:8 is referring to the spirit of Christ that all Christians have and not some Spirit person who is also God.

The Son refers to the Holy Spirit as a distinct Person from Himself that He ( Jesus ) will send to the disciples to indwell them, guide them , lead them in His absence. The Holy Spirit sees, hears , listens and obeys the Son just like the Son did with the Father.

John 15:26-27
26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.


John 16:5-8
"But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, Where are You going?' 6"But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go,I will send Him to you. 8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;


John 16:13-15
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15"All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

 

[Peterlag]

The Son refers to the Holy Spirit as a distinct Person from Himself that He ( Jesus ) will send to the disciples to indwell them, guide them , lead them in His absence. The Holy Spirit sees, hears , listens and obeys the Son just like the Son did with the Father.

John 15:26-27
26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.


John 16:5-8
"But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, Where are You going?' 6"But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go,I will send Him to you. 8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;


John 16:13-15
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15"All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

I will buy the resurrected Christ send to the disciples the spirit of God to guide and lead them in his absence. The spirit sees, hears, listens and obeys the Son just like the Son did with the Father. But I will not buy that spirit is God in me. It's God's spirit.

 

[civic]

I will buy the resurrected Christ send to the disciples the spirit of God to guide and lead them in his absence. The spirit sees, hears, listens and obeys the Son just like the Son did with the Father. But I will not buy that spirit is God in me. It's God's spirit.

Jesus never said it was Gods spirit. Did you read the passages I quoted ?

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus never said it was Gods spirit. Did you read the passages I quoted ?

Yes and they all refer to the spirit of God also called the spirit of Christ. None of them refer to a God person. I have detailed files on this.

 

[synergy]

You do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. John 3:8 is referring to the spirit of Christ that all Christians have and not some Spirit person who is also God.

Actually, John 3:8 is referring to the Spirit along with the 3 previous verses leading up to verse 8. Your intent to blind us to the Personhood of the Holy Spirit fails miserably. So not only "you do not the Scriptures or the power of God", you don't even know how to read English.

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[dwight92070]

Peter said that Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, "Why has satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit ...?" In the same verse Peter tells him, "You have not lied to men but to God." So we know that the Holy Spirit is indeed God. Acts 5:3-4

 

[Peterlag]

Actually, John 3:8 is referring to the Spirit along with the 3 previous verses leading up to verse 8. Your intent to blind us to the Personhood of the Holy Spirit fails miserably. So not only "you do not the Scriptures or the power of God", you don't even know how to read English.

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Again, all of your above Scripture is referring to the new birth and not about the spirit being another God. Here's a bit more: The words “HOLY SPIRIT” in the Bible are primarily used in two very different ways: One way is to refer to God Himself and the other is referring to God’s nature that He gives to people. God is holy and is spirit and therefore“the Holy Spirit” with a capital “H” and a capital “S” is one of the many “names” or designations for God. God gives His holy spirit nature to people as a gift and when HOLY SPIRIT is used that way it should be translated as the “holy spirit” with a lowercase “h” and a lowercase “s.” The Bible says there is one God, and one Lord, who is the man Jesus Christ; and one gift of the holy spirit. Most Christians are aware that the original manuscripts of the Bible were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. However, it's not well known that Hebrew and Aramaic do not have upper-case and lower-case letters, but rather they just have one form for their letters.

Greek does have upper and lower-case letters, but the early Greek manuscripts were all written with only upper-case letters. Therefore, the early manuscripts had no such thing as the “Holy Spirit” or the “holy spirit” because what was always written was the "HOLY SPIRIT." The capital or lower-case letters are always a translator’s interpretation whenever we read “Holy Spirit” or“holy spirit” or “Spirit” or“spirit” in the English Bible. The difference is usually due to the theology of the translator. The bottom line is we cannot know from the Hebrew or Greek texts whether the Author meant the “Holy Spirit” or the “holy spirit”because we must decide based on the context and scope of Scripture whether the reference being made is to God or God’s gift.

 

[synergy]

Again, all of your above Scripture is referring to the new birth and not about the spirit being another God. Here's a bit more: The words “HOLY SPIRIT” in the Bible are primarily used in two very different ways: One way is to refer to God Himself and the other is referring to God’s nature that He gives to people. God is holy and is spirit and therefore“the Holy Spirit” with a capital “H” and a capital “S” is one of the many “names” or designations for God. God gives His holy spirit nature to people as a gift and when HOLY SPIRIT is used that way it should be translated as the “holy spirit” with a lowercase “h” and a lowercase “s.” The Bible says there is one God, and one Lord, who is the man Jesus Christ; and one gift of the holy spirit. Most Christians are aware that the original manuscripts of the Bible were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. However, it's not well known that Hebrew and Aramaic do not have upper-case and lower-case letters, but rather they just have one form for their letters.

Greek does have upper and lower-case letters, but the early Greek manuscripts were all written with only upper-case letters. Therefore, the early manuscripts had no such thing as the “Holy Spirit” or the “holy spirit” because what was always written was the "HOLY SPIRIT." The capital or lower-case letters are always a translator’s interpretation whenever we read “Holy Spirit” or“holy spirit” or “Spirit” or“spirit” in the English Bible. The difference is usually due to the theology of the translator. The bottom line is we cannot know from the Hebrew or Greek texts whether the Author meant the “Holy Spirit” or the “holy spirit”because we must decide based on the context and scope of Scripture whether the reference being made is to God or God’s gift.

Whatever the case may be (upper case or lower case), there are multiple Biblical passages that clearly depict the Personhood of the Holy Spirit. Here are just a few of those passages:

1. He has a Personal will. The Spirit breathes where He desires (John 3:8). "...His own will" (Heb 2:4).
2. He has His own Mind (1 Cor 2:11; Eph 4:30) and makes Personal Decisions (Acts 15:28, Acts 16:7)
3. He is Omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-8); All-Knowing (1 Corinthians 2:10-11); Creator (Luke 1:35); Savior (Titus 3:5); Addressed as God (Acts 5:3-4).
4. He is worshipped: "Praise of His Glory" (Eph 1:14).
5. He possesses command. He directs (Isaiah 40:13); sends out holy workers (Acts 13:1–4); distributes spiritual gifts to believers (1 Cor 12:11).
6. He is His own Personal entity as an Independent Witness (Acts 5:32).

There are many more passages if you want more....

 

[civic]

Whatever the case may be (upper case or lower case), there are multiple Biblical passages that clearly depict the Personhood of the Holy Spirit. Here are just a few of those passages:

1. He has a Personal will. The Spirit breathes where He desires (John 3:8). "...His own will" (Heb 2:4).
2. He has His own Mind (1 Cor 2:11; Eph 4:30) and makes Personal Decisions (Acts 15:28, Acts 16:7)
3. He is Omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-8); All-Knowing (1 Corinthians 2:10-11); Creator (Luke 1:35); Savior (Titus 3:5); Addressed as God (Acts 5:3-4).
4. He is worshipped: "Praise of His Glory" (Eph 1:14).
5. He possesses command. He directs (Isaiah 40:13); sends out holy workers (Acts 13:1–4); distributes spiritual gifts to believers (1 Cor 12:11).
6. He is His own Personal entity as an Independent Witness (Acts 5:32).

There are many more passages if you want more....

Amen the scriptures are overwhelmingly in favor of the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit just as they are of the Son in His Person and work as God.