The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth
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Peterlag
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The doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a“mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.
The doctrine of the Trinity is the assembling of facts of the Bible and is used to point out where heresies have formed. Sure, have to be careful about doubters, but people with incoherent alternative ideas are not going to readily be accepted.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
I tend to focus on the spiritual application of the trinity and leave it at that.
Since most churches who believe trinity on paper practice modalism spiritually .. it just is what it is.
dwight92070
Well-known member
I don't see you engaging in doctrinal discussions on the Trinity very much yourself. Most of what you have said is just bashing it and those who believe it.
Peterlag
Well-known member
I am working on defense commenting on what people post because my stuff is so strong that nobody can discuss it. They just then attack me personally. Here's an example...
The Old Testament prophecies about the coming Messiah foretold that he would be a human being who would be the offspring of Eve (Genesis 3:15); a descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18); a descendant of Judah (Genesis 49:10; a prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15); a son of David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 11:1); a king ruling under Yahweh (Psalm 110:1); and a ruler from among the people of Israel (Jeremiah 30:21). That explains why the people were all expecting a human Messiah. Psalm 110:1 merits special attention because it's especially clear but has been misunderstood and misrepresented by most English versions that read “The LORD says to my Lord….” The word “LORD” is Yahweh, but many Trinitarian commentators argue that “my Lord” in this verse is the Hebrew word "adonai" that is another name for God, and that would provide proof of the divinity of the Messiah. But the Hebrew text does not use "adonai" but rather "adoni" which is always used in Scripture to describe human masters and lords, but never God.
The Old Testament refers to the Messiah as “one like a son of man” and the phrase “son of man” was a Semitic idiom for a human being and it's used that way throughout the Old Testament. The phrase “son of man” also became a title of the Messiah when Daniel referred to him as “one like a son of man” (Daniel 7:13) and that explains why Jesus called himself “the son of man” many times. The use of the “son of man” in reference to the Messiah is one more piece of evidence that Jesus was fully human and one more reason that people were expecting the Messiah to be human. The New Testament teaches Jesus was a man and Jesus himself said he was “a man who has told you the truth” John 8:40. Jesus was not being disingenuous and hiding his “divine nature” but rather was making a factual statement that reinforced what the Jews were expecting of the Messiah—that he would be a fully human man.
The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”
Peterlag
Well-known member
I would love to know what the spiritual application of the trinity are.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
It's a prayer application.
The Trinity has a two fold understanding: How God is one, and how we become one as God is one.
This is based on the prayer Jesus prayed in John Chapter 17.
The application is helpful for people with a deeply spiritual way of looking at the world, such a mindset sometimes comes with issues - so understanding "Trinity" is also helpful for discernment.
civic
Well-known member
Yes there are many biblical references about 2 becoming one and the 3 are 1 ( 1 Jn 5:7 ) One (Echad ) is Plural in many places.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
Since the church is at the discussion phase about "what the trinity is" and "what that oneness looks like" I tend to just apply what I've learned and wait for them to finish.
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
I haven't read through the entire thread, I've read 2 pages at the beginning and 3 pages at the end, so please bear with me if this has been asked but:
- Exactly how is it you came to be an "expert" in your field?
- What precisely is your field?
- With regard to your "teachings," are you a pastor? If so, are you independent of other churches or are you recognized by a name (denomination can be too restrictive a term)?
- How did you come to your "beliefs" and "teachings?" Did you come to them on your own or where you taught them by someone else?
TheLayman
dwight92070
Well-known member
Peter called Jesus God: "To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: ..." 2 Peter 1:1
Paul called Jesus God: " ... looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ, ..." Titus 2:13
John called Jesus God: " ... and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." 1 John 5:20
Paul called Jesus God: " ... looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ, ..." Titus 2:13
John called Jesus God: " ... and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." 1 John 5:20
He says he is a prophet and that he has the "spirit" but that "spirit" is not God. Somehow he says it is of God but not God. I suspect he has spent years looking at the Trinitarian doctrine and history, but he calls it Catholic despite the councils not happening while Roman Catholicism was a strong controlling and distinguishing operation.
A characteristic of his posts is to share passages reflecting Jesus's humanity and use those as arguments against his divinity. I suppose he is trying to get people interested in these discussions so people will go deeper into what Peterlag learned from the "spirit." So, it does not seem that he is even speaking from the simple status of being a Christian with a different view. His ideas are from special "revelation."
If he wants to contest the Trinitarian concept of God, he needs to address the predominant verses and arguments, not just pick at the edges.
I have told JWs that if they have a better concept of God, duke it out with the scholars of the Trinitarian doctrine and prove the alternate theory at that level. It would not do much to just debate with me and convince me of something different. I also have said it is possible a better defined sense of God could be figured out; then we could naturally accept that. But I don't think any basis exists for that change so far.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
If we have come to the conclusion that "there can exist one and only one divine will", then we have concluded that God is one person.
By definition, one person can only have one will. Otherwise, the person would not be a person.
One thing is to have conflicting wills.
Another thing is to have distinct, individual, unique wills.
For example, Jesus wants all of us (who have individual, distinct wills) to become One. That is an example of non-conflicting wills. And that's the kind of Unity that He says he has with the Father.
I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word, that they may all be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You. May they also be one in Us, that the world may believe that You have sent Me (John 17:21,21)
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
These are most probably either accidental or deliberate manipulations of the text.
Why do I say this? Because the number of similar statements that set God and the Jesus Christ as separate beings is overwhelmingly higher.
About 98.5% of all verses in the Bible who place "God" and "Jesus" or "Christ" on the same verse, present them as two separate beings.
Only 1.5% present Jesus as being God.
Considering the fraudulent addition to 1 John 1:7, recognized by the majority of Trinitarian scholars, I would ask all of you:
What is more logical: To have manipulated the copying or translation of 1.5% or 98.5% of the verses?
Furthermore: the three authors mentioned above (Peter, Paul and John) make this distinction over, and over, and over.
Incorrect. I don't know about the Spanish language but in English we oftentimes talk about the human will, never about human wills. So then by your definition then the entire human race is one person.
Thank you for proving that deified Persons possess one non-conflicting will.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
In Spanish and English we sometimes use that expression metaphorically, in the same way we say "human condition", "human progress", "human destiny", etc.
But obviously, each person enjoys or suffers his own condition, is accountable for his own progress and will face his own destiny.
In the case of will, the fact that there is no single human will is clearly manifested in that every person can make his own choice and will be judged and rewarded by God according to his own deeds.
We believe in individual salvation, don't we? Well, Individual salvation is based on the concept of one person = one will.
In conclusion, the entire human race is not one person precisely because it is composed by billions of wills. One person = one will.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
The passage of Jesus praying to His Father in Luke 22 clearly presents two different wills.
Remember: I am not talking about harmony or conflict between wills. Nobody has ever claimed that Jesus will and God will were in conflict. So please do not make a strawman fallacy here.
My argument is about the existence of individual, distinct wills. Not about whether they are in harmony or conflict.
The passage of Jesus praying to His Father in John 17 clearly shows that Jesus Himself recognized that his choice may not be the same choice of his Father.
Two wills. Two persons. Only one of those persons was called by Jesus "The True and Only God". The other was called "the one you have sent".
"Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me. Nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” (Luke 22:42)
"Father, the hour has come. ... this is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." (John 17:1-3)
Peterlag
Well-known member
I became an expert when I figured out Galatians 2:20 and I write about it here...
I was taught God or Christ was showing me something when I walk by the spirit. Maybe it's the spirit showing me something when I walk by the spirit. In Romans 8:4, it's suggesting we walk after or by this spirit. In Romans 8:9, it calls this spirit the spirit of Christ. In Romans 8:11, it calls this spirit the spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead and that it dwells in us. In 1 Corinthians 3:16, it calls it the spirit of God that dwells in us. In Galatians 4:6, it's called the spirit of his son. And in Galatians 5:16, it talks about walking in this spirit. Very few Christians know who they are in the spirit because most of us have been taught by our religious leaders that we are sinners by nature. And in my view that is just the opposite of what the Scriptures teach.
We are taught "to be in the spirit" means to walk upright in our flesh or to have our flesh in fellowship with God. So we read right over the many verses such as Peter and John were filled with the spirit. Or "that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:21. Romans talks about no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. Christians everywhere do not seem to understand the words "in him" or "in Christ" or "filled with the spirit." We can't see ourselves walking by the spirit because we are taught that the operations of the spirit are things we operate through our flesh. They are not the manifestations of you. They are of the spirit. We are also taught that we are sinners and this is another reason why we can't see the spirit as long as we see ourselves as a piece of trash. To see it we have to see ourselves as the righteousness of God in him.
I live by the faith of the Son of God...
If Paul in Galatians 2:20 says he's crucified in the flesh. But he still lives, but not him, but Christ. Then I gotta think he's referring to the Christ within. The new nature. And that is the spirit of Christ, which we can shorten to spirit. Then it's the faith from the spirit. Well, one of the operations or manifestations of the spirit is faith.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
It's not the body, but the spirit that has become a new creature. In other words, it's in the spirit that we have become a brand-new species because our spirit is totally new and therefore there is not an old sin nature left in us. We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.
The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian. I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.
Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives. It now seems clear to me that this concept of what the Christians believe today is not what the Scriptures teach.
