The concept of Agency does not apply at all in the area of prayer that is directly rendered unto the Lord Jesus since one can just as easily render prayer directly unto the Father. An agent would be a party when the other party is not there and/or cannot be reached. An "agent" is therefore unnecessary.
The Trinity made easy
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The concept of Agency does not apply at all in the area of prayer that is directly rendered unto the Lord Jesus since one can just as easily render prayer directly unto the Father. An agent would be a party when the other party is not there and/or cannot be reached. An "agent" is therefore unnecessary.
...and not a verse of scripture to support anything. It's kind of like the last trump being the sounded at a Jewish Festival of Trumpets.
What a joke!
You mean that in the past 100 years not one Unitarian can produce a Greek lexicon because of the above? Get real.
Tell that to numerous authors who have written against the Trinity as far back as when I was a kid - 1970's.
Your delusions run deep.
Irrelevant to the point I made.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Trinitarians assert a context not in the text. Jesus did not say he is equal to God in some sense. He made the general statement that God is FAR greater.
That their position is untenable is seen in how they constantly have to add words to Scripture (not in essence but position) and impose an exegesis interpretation of language usage.
Given the monotheist text of all the writers of Scripture and Jesus himself saying the only true God is his Father, we have to take Jesus claim of inferiority at face value.
Regarding language usage, I recently watched a vid of Wilt Chamberlain talking to his team about to face Kareem Abdul Jabar. He said he used to be the best center in the league. It means he is admitting inferiority to Jabar; it does not mean he is claiming some equality with Jabar.
They are both human.
They are both men.
They are both professional basketball players.
But the text does not make such claims. Chamberlain admitted being inferior to Jabar and Jesus admitted being FAR inferior to God. Trinitarianism is such IDOLATRY, that they ignore our lord and saviors own words and their plain meaning.
I already posted the context. Jesus said these words to his disciples as a reason to celebrate because Jesus is going with God, who is FAR greater than he is.
Wrangler
Well-known member
No one should do this since Jesus only taught us to pray to our Father. Jesus did not teach the trinity.
Jesus didn't say pray "only" to the Father.
The same Greek word for "pray" in Matthew 6:9 is used in reference to the Lord Jesus in Acts 1:24.
So your assertion fails.
Acts 1:24-25
(24) And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
(25) to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”
When the appellation "Lord" appears without reading "Lord Jesus" in Acts 1:24 it is important to keep in mind that whenever the following keys words from this prayer are found elsewhere in Scripture in association with the "Lord" then the "Lord" always refers to the Lord Jesus.
The passages in boldface are from the same author (Luke).
1. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "show" (anadeiknymi) in Acts 1:24 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Luke 10:1).
2. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "chosen" (eklegomai) in Acts 1:24 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Acts 1:2; cf. v. 6; Luke 6:13; cf. vv. 5, 46; John 6:70; cf. v. 68 and John 13:18; cf. vv. 13-14).
3. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "ministry" (diakonia) in Acts 1:25 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Acts 1:17; cf. v. 21; 20:24; 1 Corinthians 12:5; Ephesians 4:12; cf. Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 4:17; 1 Timothy 1:12).
4. The "Lord" occurs along the same Greek word for "apostleship" (apostolē) in Acts 1:25 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Romans 1:5; cf. Romans 1:4; 1 Corinthians 9:2).
The first thing to realize is that nearly all translations were 'translated' by Trinitarians.
Thomas was not equating Jesus with the Father - the Supreme Ruler of the universe. The word theos is used in multiple ways. On the trinity issue, Strong's is biased because they can't go against the grain. Trinity is a DOCTRINE that has nothing to do with the word theos.
Trinitarianism runs deep in Strong's, Vines. Even so, the lines that aren't true are the twisting it into trinity. You can't define the a "trinitarian God' with a Trinitarian God which is actually a Catholic Doctrine. THAT is THEIR definition of God/god. Look at the FIRST meaning of God/Theos...
This is what theos also means...
Primary meaning -
a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
spoken of the only and true God
refers to the things of God - His counsels, interests, things due to him - whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way - God's representative or viceregent - of magistrates and judges.
When you consider the variety of ways God/god is used, you have to put this in some sort of logical context. Thomas wasn't equating Jesus with Yahweh when he called him my God? The implication here is Jesus is Thomas' God.
This is how it's viewed in the Textus Receptus..
AND answerED THE THOMAS AND sais to-him THE Master OF-ME AND THE God OF-ME
My Lord and my God is a reference to Jesus. NOT God the Father. Jesus never referred to himself as “God” in the absolute sense so why would Thomas? There is no evidence in the gospels where Jesus’ disciples believed him to be God. When Thomas saw the resurrected Christ he wasn't implying a trinity or equating Jesus with the Father.
Bottom line - Thomas is saying Jesus is His Lord and His God. The article is definitely in the interlinear which means Thomas was referring to Jesus as "HIS GOD."
Thomas was not equating Jesus with the Father - the Supreme Ruler of the universe. The word theos is used in multiple ways. On the trinity issue, Strong's is biased because they can't go against the grain. Trinity is a DOCTRINE that has nothing to do with the word theos.
Trinitarianism runs deep in Strong's, Vines. Even so, the lines that aren't true are the twisting it into trinity. You can't define the a "trinitarian God' with a Trinitarian God which is actually a Catholic Doctrine. THAT is THEIR definition of God/god. Look at the FIRST meaning of God/Theos...
This is what theos also means...
Primary meaning -
a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
spoken of the only and true God
refers to the things of God - His counsels, interests, things due to him - whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way - God's representative or viceregent - of magistrates and judges.
When you consider the variety of ways God/god is used, you have to put this in some sort of logical context. Thomas wasn't equating Jesus with Yahweh when he called him my God? The implication here is Jesus is Thomas' God.
This is how it's viewed in the Textus Receptus..
AND answerED THE THOMAS AND sais to-him THE Master OF-ME AND THE God OF-ME
My Lord and my God is a reference to Jesus. NOT God the Father. Jesus never referred to himself as “God” in the absolute sense so why would Thomas? There is no evidence in the gospels where Jesus’ disciples believed him to be God. When Thomas saw the resurrected Christ he wasn't implying a trinity or equating Jesus with the Father.
Bottom line - Thomas is saying Jesus is His Lord and His God. The article is definitely in the interlinear which means Thomas was referring to Jesus as "HIS GOD."
I can tell that I won't be replying to you any more.
The difference is Jesus calls Himself one with the Father as well as saying He is doing things by the Hand of the Father. That's where the Jews were spotting Him being an equal agent.
Diserner
Well-known member
I'm a Trinitarian who rejects the Hypostatic Union.
Wrangler
Well-known member
He didn't have to. Supposing so is incredibly insolent.
It's funny how trinitarians say things like Christ did not deny such a thing AS IF he has a burden to do so. Implied is a reliance on ignoring what Christ explicitly says. Now that we turn to another subject, trinitarians assert that he has to deny all the ways to NOT do a thing when he taught how to do a thing.
A bag of chicken nuggets state what temperature to cook the product. It does not state "only" cook it at that temperature. This is because it does not have to. "Do it way X" implies do not do it -X.
What an insolent way to treat our lord and savior. He says to pray this way. And your intent is to defy his direction on account he did not also list all the ways NOT to pray. I'll pray to God for you Fred.
Jesus did not teach the trinity. Fact.
Wrangler
Well-known member
It's not different at all.
People talk this way all the time. Your mother and I are one on this issue. It means they are in agreement, not that they are the same person or Being.
The only reason Scripture tells us that Jesus had a God is because he is not God. Does it make sense to you that God has a God?
Well that's a good thing!
When "my God" is used in the OT by a believer it ALWAYS refers to the Almighty. Jesus would have known this. Sadly, you still can't figure it out.
You dodged the information concerning the prayer to Jesus in Acts 1:24-25 in post 86 because it refutes your heresy.
Here's another proof (try not dodging this one as well):
In Matthew 24:30 and Matthew 26:64 Jesus refers to Himself as the Son of Man who will come on the clouds of heaven. Thus, He identifies Himself as the Son of Man spoken of in Daniel 7:13.
In Daniel 7:14 the Son of Man is the proper recipient of "pelach".
Daniel 7:13-14
(13) I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
(14) And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
One of the ways of offering "pelach" is by prayers.
Daniel 6:10. 16
(10) Now when Daniel knew that the document was signed, he entered his house (now in his roof chamber he had windows open toward Jerusalem); and he continued kneeling on his knees three times a day, praying and giving thanks before his God, as he had been doing previously.
(16) Then the king gave orders, and Daniel was brought in and cast into the lions’ den. The king spoke and said to Daniel, “Your God whom you constantly serve will Himself deliver you.”
Since the Lord Jesus taught He is the proper recipient of pelach demonstrates He taught that He is the proper recipient of prayer.
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civic
Well-known member
Praying to Jesus would be forbidden and idolatry for any Jew punishable by death under the law if He was not God.
John 14:14
14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
Acts 1:24-26
And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen 25to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." 26And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles
Acts 7:55-60
5 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 57But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. 58When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" 60Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 8:22
"Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you
1 Corinthians 1:1-2
Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,
2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
2 Cor 12:8-10
8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.
James 1:1-8
James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.
2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. 7For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,8being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
1 John 5:14-15
14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.
hope this helps !!!
John 14:14
14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
Acts 1:24-26
And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen 25to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." 26And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles
Acts 7:55-60
5 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 57But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. 58When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" 60Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 8:22
"Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you
1 Corinthians 1:1-2
Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,
2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
2 Cor 12:8-10
8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.
James 1:1-8
James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.
2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. 7For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,8being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
1 John 5:14-15
14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.
hope this helps !!!
Sorry - but that is not true! The verses I quoted have NOTHING to do with Jesus being - or not being God!
It truly amazes me the depth Trinitarians go to in their attempt to support Trinity!
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
atpollard
Well-known member
I must be simple, because I thought John pretty much settled this issue in the FIRST CHAPTER of his Gospel.
Unless one is inclined to debate the "personhood" of the Holy Spirit ... the DEITY of Christ is a done deal and 'the Father is not the Son' is self-evident ... so, there IS NO "Trinity" debate [except understanding HOW it can be?]
Unless one is inclined to debate the "personhood" of the Holy Spirit ... the DEITY of Christ is a done deal and 'the Father is not the Son' is self-evident ... so, there IS NO "Trinity" debate [except understanding HOW it can be?]
civic
Well-known member
So here is the way I see it so track with me.
As Trinitarians we have a built in presupposition that God is Plural in Persons. Unitarians have the opposite presupposition that God is singular in Person.
The same with Calvinist and tulip. They have those presuppositions when reading the bible and Arminians have the opposite.
It is very difficult to read the bible without any presuppositions as if you are reading it for the very first time. If we could do that then we would be in a better place of understanding what God is trying to teach us. Our presuppositions many times are actually a road block to growth and understanding.
Diserner
Well-known member
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