Have you ever done a word study on this?The key thing is the fact of Jesus ascending to be one with the Father. That is the sense in which the Father was 'greater'. He wasn't referring to superiority/inferiority. Another way of putting it would be if I said the president of the USA is flying in a plane and I am on the ground
It just isn't a verse about the Father being superior. That isn't the context.
The Trinity made easy
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
Stephen also referred to Him as a prophet (Acts 7:37), but he also knew Jesus is God in that he prayed to Him (Acts 7:59-60).
1. Citing both John 5:18 and John 14:28 the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT) reads: John accepts the paradox that he is the Son who is both subject to the Father and yet also one with Him (10:30; 1:1). In other words, He is equal to the Father. (3:352-353, isos, Stahlin)
2. Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: Jesus declares that, "The Father is greater than I" (John 14:28; 1520). This does not not suggest inequality in the Trinity, but rather expresses a willing subordination of the Son to the will of the Father. (Greater, page 309)
Well take a minute to explain what that passage means to you.
a. Only God is the proper recipient of prayer.
b. The Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.
c. Therefore, the Lord Jesus is God.
Oh sure - they are Trinitarians! Even so - that doesn't change the definition of greater -
- greater, larger, elder, stronger
I hate to say it but that's what's called - twisting'. Think about it. Claiming someone is greater is not greater but equal to! The verse implies greater in measure because it's also translated GREATER - GREATEST - and - MORE.
But trinitarians have to change that meaning because this passage literally throws the co-equal trinity under the bus.
Willing Subordination?
Willing subordination verses...
If they are equal, why did Jesus say in John 14:28
"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."
Why did he say in John 10:29,
"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
And why did Jesus say in John 13:16
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."
Last edited:
It's amazing the extremes trinitarians go through to support this. Jesus is Lord of all. Mathew 28:18 says he has available to him every type of power that his Father has. AKA - Full authority over them. He doesn't have to be God in order for him to be prayed to or to answer prayer.
Numerous people asked Jesus for things when he was on earth. It doesn't make sense that they could ask Jesus for something over 2000 years ago, but cannot do so now. We are told to have fellowship with Jesus. To you, that doesn't include praying to him.
Only in the mind of a Trinitarian would Jesus being prayed makes him God!!
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Have you ever heard of what killed Zappa? Mercury poisoning. He used to play with it as a kid. That's what I read anyway. He was an obtuse out of the box composer. And a very smart man by the way.
Go ahead and cite a Greek-English lexicon or Bible Dictionary that isn't.
Joe Biden as President of the United States of America is greater than me.
Joe Biden and I are equally men.
John 10:30
I and the Father are one (NASB).
Christ affirmed that the Father is greater than all while at the same time equating His (Christ's) power with the power of the Father.
No one will snatch them out of My (Christ's) hand (v. 28) = No one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand (v. 29)
They are "one" in omnipotence. This is why John 10:28 (in reference to Jesus) and John 10:29 (in reference to the Father) are both cited in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament when it affirms that greater, "is used of those who surpass others - either in nature or power, as God" (megas, page 395, the underlined is mine).
The above is incorrect.
Jesus quotes from Deuteronomy 6:13 in Luke 4:8. No one but God alone is to receive latreuō.
One of the ways Anna rendered latreuō was by her prayers. (Luke 2:37)
Thus, when one prays they are offering latreuō.
That the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer demonstrates He is the proper recipient of latreuō.
This proves the Lord Jesus is God (Deuteronomy 6:13; Luke 4:8).
atpollard
Well-known member
Is a General stronger than a Corporal?
Is a General taller than a Corporal?
Does a General poses a higher IQ than a Corporal?
Is a General more valuable as a human being than a Corporal?
Yet in RANK, it is undeniable that a General is greater in authority than a Corporal.
So too, with God the Father and God the Son … the SON lovingly submits to the authority of the FATHER (yet is in no sense ‘inferior’ or ‘less God’).
Wrangler
Well-known member
No - just an exclamation, not a declarative statement of fact.
When I drop my toast, I am not actually claiming it is sugar.
And not an answer to my question. Who is your lord, Thomas or Jesus?
Last edited:
Then you are confused.
Was Thomas sinning when he referred to Jesus as "my God"?
Wrangler
Well-known member
Jesus is the servant OF GOD who was sent BY GOD.
Jewish concept of agency...
The person being sent carries a message on behalf of the other... The carrier ..the messenger has equal status as the originator.
The message from the carrier becomes the carrier's message
Same thing applied when the Pharisees saw Jesus doing things by the Father's Hand and authority.
They saw what He was claiming as diety..equality with the Father. And Jesus never denied that equality.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Totally wrong as you already mentioned agency. It’s not just a Jewish concept. Odd that you recognize but then reject agency.
Prophets speak on behalf of God, by definition. Does not mean they are claiming to be God.
Isaiah said I am the first and the last. No one thought he was claiming to be God.
Same question to you; You do realize Jesus refers to our father as our God, right? See John 20:17.
Last edited:
Wrangler
Well-known member
And that is wrong! > is not a form of =
Diserner
Well-known member
We would say that is a category error, a conflation of two attributes.
Not all differences are the same differences, logically—you can be a smarter person, but have the same strength, as someone else.
In one sense greater—in one sense not.
Then context dictates.
Last edited by a moderator:
That's my point. I think there are some that've been written over the years, but trinitarians have a history of shutting down the books of nontrinitarians. They've made sure over the years to suppress any book in opposition to Trinity. Their books just didn't get published. Do you know why that is? It's more sinister than you think. They're in too deep.
More than the doctrine itself, it's about upholding their reputation and the reputation of thousands of highly respected theologians. Over the last 1,600 years the number of books, articles written, and number messages taught and preached by these highly respected and educated Theologians supporting Trinity is in the millions!
Diehard Trinitarians have been in damage control since the doctrine's development. They've "Closed the Crash Doors" by shunning and shaming people. JW'S are accused by some Protestants of being a cult for disfellowshipping people and rejecting Trinity. Trinitarians are doing the same thing to non-Trinitarians.
E.W Bullinger and T.D. Jakes are perfect examples. Proof of this is the way Trinitarians treated T.D. Jakes after he came OUT of the Trinitarian closet. They did everything they could to destroy his character and reputation.
E.W. Bullinger was the secretary of the Trinitarian Society. On his death bed he revealed his rejection of trinity. He knew that had he disclosed his rejection of Trinity beforehand; his works would never have been published.
You and Joe Biden both have human fathers. That's why neither of you can claim to be the Christ.
Bottom line...
Christians DO NOT admit mistakes. If the 'big shots' were to admit Trinity is ONE BIG MISTAKE, that would destroy the authority, legitimacy and reputation’ of thousands of well-respected influential Trinitarian authors!
The crux of the Trinitarian matter basically revolves around the hypostatic Union - AKA the two natures. That's really the only answer Trinitarians have.
In the 20 or so years I've debated this, NOT ONE person has ever proved the Hypostatic Union!
Last edited:
Jesus didn't correct Thomas. Jesus knew that "my God" is always in reference to the Almighty when a believer uses this expression.
Your modern day scenario won't hold.
Jesus is Lord = YHWH in that....well...see above.
