civic
Well-known member
Amen
The Trinity made easy
- Thread starter civic
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His position does not devalue Jesus. It places him right where he's supposed to be - the Son of God. Trinitarians are the ones who elevated the man Jesus to be on par with the Supreme God of the universe. Jesus was 100% man. He was divine but that doesn't make him co-equal to God the Father.
The Trinity inflates Jesus' character to being equal with the Father. No man has or ever will be equal to the Father who has no equals.
To whom then will you liken me or shall I be equal?” Isaiah 40:25
There are different levels of divinity. Divinity is Gods power and nature or whatever proceeds from God. There are different levels of His power and might.
The Son of God (John 20:31) is "my God" (John 20:28).
When it comes to rendering prayer and worship to the Father, Jesus is the equal recipient.
Diserner
Well-known member
Whatever God is cannot, by definition, be lessened—don't you believe in the Creator/creature distinction?
There is an infinite gap between the Uncreated and the created—surely.
How can something be "a little bit" God?
Diserner
Well-known member
What confuses people, I think, is his complete submission to the Father.
People need to realize God instituted this system of submission so Christ could vicariously represent the Church.
22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,
23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. (Eph. 1:22-23 NIV)
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
In addition to John 20:28 and John 20:31...
Notice also "the Son of God" (Revelation 2:18) fully knows the hearts of all (Revelation 2:23), which elsewhere in the Bible affirms that only God knows (1 Kings 8:39).
The Son of God (Acts 9:20) is to be called upon (prayed to) as being Lord (YHWH) in Acts 9:21; cf. Acts 2:21; Romans 10:13).
Jesus, being the Son of God, is the proper recipient of prayer:
1 John 5:13-15
(13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
(14) And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
(15) And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
civic
Well-known member
lol I luv it thanks for the laugh.
Diserner
Well-known member
Bible:
The officers answered, "No man ever spoke like this Man!" (Jn. 7:46 NKJ)
Muckah:
Frank Zappa, it don't matter, you can turn anybody into God!
Wrangler
Well-known member
Yes.
Being superior does not necessarily mean a difference in species.
It’s like saying the battle of Leyte Gulf is not a greater battle than I had with my neighbor because they were both battles.
False Alternative. Jesus does not specify how God is greater than he is; God could be a greater being AND in a greater position. I contend he is. Either way > is NOT =.
The key thing is the fact of Jesus ascending to be one with the Father. That is the sense in which the Father was 'greater'. He wasn't referring to superiority/inferiority. Another way of putting it would be if I said the president of the USA is flying in a plane and I am on the ground
It just isn't a verse about the Father being superior. That isn't the context.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Neither is what you asserted.
The key thing is the fact that the Father is uniquely and repeatedly identified as God. In John 14, Jesus was answering the question ‘why will You reveal Yourself to us, but not to the world?’
Jesus replied in v24 that God sent him. This demonstrates God is the principle and Jesus is merely his agent. And in V28 Jesus tells us explicitly,’ If you love Me, celebrate the fact that I am going to be with the Father because He is far greater than I am.’
Because God is FAR greater than Jesus is why we should celebrate our beloved Messiah returning to our God.
You do realize Jesus refers to our father as our God, right? See John 20:17.
You do realize that Thomas properly referred to the Lord Jesus a my Lord and my God, right? See John 20:28.
This corresponds with Revelation 4:11
“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”
You guys could turn Frank Zappa into God!
I would be more correct to say that since Jesus had a human mother, he's 50% God and 50% human. But that too would 'in a way' violate Hebrews 2:17 that say's "Jesus was fully human in every way." So let me say...
Jesus was divine. He represented God and spoke for Him, just like the prophets. He was the son of God, a prophet, divine, anointed, and full of the holy spirit. Yet, he always showed his subordination to the Father. He called himself a servant and said a servant is not greater than his master.
NIV - "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
The most devastating scripture that I see for Trinitarians is Hebrews 2:14-17.
"Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.
For this reason he had to be made like them,[fn] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
How was he able to lead a sinless life? How is his sacrifice able to atone for sin? How is his resurrection a vindication of his authority and holiness?"
____________________________
According to Hebrews 2:18 if Jesus was God, then he's a fraud and the cross is a hoax. The bible says he was tempted in every way and that he knew temptation. God cannot be tempted.
We know God cannot be tempted and cannot sin.
If Jesus was God that means he could not have been tempted to sin. That makes the Word of God totally contradictory - makes Jesus a fraud because he never would have to overcome sin because being God he couldn't have been tempted to sin anyway ultimately making the cross and the atonement for sin a complete hoax - think about it.
He was the Christ - the Messiah. He was divine in that he came from the Father and had an uncommon measure of the Fathers Holy Spirit. That's how he overcame. Even so, at times, he needed to be empowered and encouraged by an angel to overcome. (Luke 22) IF Jesus was also God, why would he need any empowerment at all from an angel?
It does seem there are different levels of divinity and Jesus would be the ultimate representation of it since he represents God the Father who he said was greater. Jesus' divine nature was not equal to God's.
The TWO NATURES - Trinity's most outstanding scapegoat. There was no overcoming the contradictions trinity continued to expose so there was no other way of overcoming them other than claiming 'Jesus has two natures'.
So the Bishops of Rome both East and West could not resolve multiple "CO-EQUAL' contradictions. they overcame those contradictions in AD 451 under Pope Leo the Great. That's when Jesus acquired TWO NATURES - the ultimate Trinitarian cop-out.
My point is this though. Some of the replies I read we're good examples of how your Trinitarian bias influences your thinking. The translators suffered from the same condition. The discussion makes everyone's trinitarian bias shine.
I would be more correct to say that since Jesus had a human mother, he's 50% God and 50% human. But that too would 'in a way' violate Hebrews 2:17 that say's "Jesus was fully human in every way." So let me say...
Jesus was divine. He represented God and spoke for Him, just like the prophets. He was the son of God, a prophet, divine, anointed, and full of the holy spirit. Yet, he always showed his subordination to the Father. He called himself a servant and said a servant is not greater than his master.
NIV - "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
The most devastating scripture that I see for Trinitarians is Hebrews 2:14-17.
"Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.
For this reason he had to be made like them,[fn] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
How was he able to lead a sinless life? How is his sacrifice able to atone for sin? How is his resurrection a vindication of his authority and holiness?"
____________________________
According to Hebrews 2:18 if Jesus was God, then he's a fraud and the cross is a hoax. The bible says he was tempted in every way and that he knew temptation. God cannot be tempted.
We know God cannot be tempted and cannot sin.
If Jesus was God that means he could not have been tempted to sin. That makes the Word of God totally contradictory - makes Jesus a fraud because he never would have to overcome sin because being God he couldn't have been tempted to sin anyway ultimately making the cross and the atonement for sin a complete hoax - think about it.
He was the Christ - the Messiah. He was divine in that he came from the Father and had an uncommon measure of the Fathers Holy Spirit. That's how he overcame. Even so, at times, he needed to be empowered and encouraged by an angel to overcome. (Luke 22) IF Jesus was also God, why would he need any empowerment at all from an angel?
It does seem there are different levels of divinity and Jesus would be the ultimate representation of it since he represents God the Father who he said was greater. Jesus' divine nature was not equal to God's.
The TWO NATURES - Trinity's most outstanding scapegoat. There was no overcoming the contradictions trinity continued to expose so there was no other way of overcoming them other than claiming 'Jesus has two natures'.
So the Bishops of Rome both East and West could not resolve multiple "CO-EQUAL' contradictions. they overcame those contradictions in AD 451 under Pope Leo the Great. That's when Jesus acquired TWO NATURES - the ultimate Trinitarian cop-out.
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