The Trinity made easy

[praise_yeshua]

I found this in another thread.



The juxtaposition of Jesus compared to God is everywhere. Proving Jesus is not God is found in the question of who raised Jesus from the dead in Romans 10:9?

It does not say Jesus raised himself.

It does not say "the Father" raised Jesus.

It says God - meaning in his unity and entirety - did the raising and Jesus was acted upon.

That's sufficiently clear.

Can I ask you to declare what value you find in "God's Son"? Please be specific.

Might you consider...

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

I have a son. As a human father, I can assure you I love him and want him to be better than I am. That is my desire for him. I want the very best to be his. I can't give that to him. I'm weak. I'm limited in power. However, this is not true with God.

I submit that you are projecting your own limitation upon Divinity.

The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying. In fact, they sought to kill Him for it. You are at odds with what they knew.

 

[Wrangler]

I submit that you are projecting your own limitation upon Divinity.

No. The limitation is God's word, which does not contain the trinity. To avoid the inevitable Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

It's absence is good enough for me. Why are you projecting more notions of divinity that God's word?

Can I ask you to declare what value you find in "God's Son"? Please be specific.

In light of above, what purpose would it serve?

 

[Wrangler]

It is not an appeal to a exclusively human construct.

Appeal to Ignorance. As humans, all we can do is appeal to human constructs. To say language, itself, is the limiting factor becomes your Appeal to Ignorance. You claim being correct but those pesky words prevent you from reasonably explaining it, right?

 

[praise_yeshua]

No. The limitation is God's word, which does not contain the trinity. To avoid the inevitable Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

It's absence is good enough for me. Why are you projecting more notions of divinity that God's word?

You're deflecting. No where do the Scripture specifically declare that "water is wet". The word "Trinity" is an English word foreign to the languages of the Scripture. It is a doctrine recognizing qualities of Divinity. Qualities that are specifically referenced in the Scriptures.

In light of above, what purpose would it serve?

Your position devalues God's Son. A Father never devalues his son. Never. He sees equality in his son. If you, being evil, know how to give good things to your own, then how much MORE does God see equality in His own?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Appeal to Ignorance. As humans, all we can do is appeal to human constructs. To say language, itself, is the limiting factor becomes your Appeal to Ignorance. You claim being correct but those pesky words prevent you from reasonably explaining it, right?

The Scriptures contain human constructs and Divine constructs. We need not be limited to solely human constructs. Flesh is flesh. Spirit is Spirit.

 

[Diserner]

Yes, person is a very difficult, nuanced, slippery word.... it's quite odd there is not a direct correlation in the Biblical languages.

But for anyone who denies the idea behind it, I don't think there is any reasoning with them.

 

[Diserner]

Also as for the singular pronoun—Jacob and Israel were often used as a corporate entity with a singular pronoun.

Showing, that a singular pronoun is not bound to one person necessarily.

 

[Wrangler]

You're deflecting. No where do the Scripture specifically declare that "water is wet".

I'm doing the EXACT opposite of deflecting! Since Scripture does not specifically say "water is wet" it is simply incorrect to say it is Biblical.

 

[Wrangler]

The word "Trinity" is an English word foreign to the languages of the Scripture.

Friend, Scripture is translated into English. It's not the word and not the concept that is in Scripture. Just admit it.

 

[Wrangler]

Your position devalues God's Son.

As if having all authority in heaven and Earth is insufficient and "the only begotten son of God" is a title of insufficient value. So what? Your position violates the 1C by falsely inflating his value above his station.

Oh, one other point. Jesus said God was greater than him. Is Jesus debating God’s Son?

 

[praise_yeshua]

As if having all authority in heaven and Earth is insufficient and "the only begotten son of God" is a title of insufficient value. So what? Your position violates the 1C by falsely inflating his value above his station.

Like I said. You are devaluing Him. Your insisting I'm inflating His value. That is impossible. There none better than Christ. None. It is impossible to overstate His value.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm doing the EXACT opposite of deflecting! Since Scripture does not specifically say "water is wet" it is simply incorrect to say it is Biblical.

Not true. Water is described in terms wherein I can safely state that water is wet regardless of the Scriptures explicitly state it or not.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Friend, Scripture is translated into English. It's not the word and not the concept that is in Scripture. Just admit it.

Sure it is. My and my Father are One.

 

[Wrangler]

Your insisting I'm inflating His value. That is impossible. There none better than Christ.

Again, Christ said God us greater than he is. Do you value Christ enough to accept his words OR do you know better than he does?

 

[Wrangler]

Not true. Water is described in terms wherein I can safely state that water is wet regardless of the Scriptures explicitly state it or not.

Ok. We are done.

 

[Diserner]

12 reasons I believe Jesus is God:

1. A mere creation cannot have eternally co-existed with God.

2. A mere creation cannot have co-created the world.

3. A mere creation cannot be enough to atone for an infinite crime against holiness.

4. A mere creation cannot contain the principle of life itself inside it.

5. A mere creation cannot destroy the power of death in itself.

6. A mere creation cannot receive worship from every created thing.

7. A mere creation cannot hold all authority in heaven and earth.

8. A mere creation would have admonitions not to idolize or worship it.

9. A mere creation cannot potentially live inside of all human beings.

10. A mere creation would not even be directly associated with anything divine.

11. A mere creation cannot demand that nothing be loved more than it as it would be commanding idolatry.

12. A mere creation cannot call itself the only absolute way and truth.

At the point you are willing to accept all 12 things, it is virtually indistinguishable for me from God anyway, and Jesus is God to you whether you use the term "God" or not. The Father is just an order of rank above Jesus with the same attributes and this corresponds to Trinitarian theology.

I believe we can find ample Scriptural evidence to support the above 12 points in both Paul and the rest of Scripture. Also when certain verses began to make me feel unsure of this, I have prayed about this directly to God for many years and received personal confirmation that this is the truth.

So the question may well then be asked, "Why isn't it stated more clearly?" That's a good questions and I give a couple of reasons.

1. It is not a doctrine essential to salvation. It is very clear the 12 disciples during Christ's earthly minister did not at all fully realize who he was, and simply had a bare faith that he was a Savior, yet Jesus clearly says they were currently saved with their names written in heaven.

2. It is the "glory of kings to search out a matter" and all doctrine doesn't come by intellectually parsing the words of Scripture, but by direct revelation from God, as Jesus said "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you Peter."

In light of this, I invite anyone to continue on their journey with a sincere heart towards God and fervent prayer, and am confident that in the end, if we continue and do not quit with a true humble and teachable heart, the Spirit of God will always eventually get us to true beliefs.

 

[civic]

12 reasons I believe Jesus is God:

1. A mere creation cannot have eternally co-existed with God.

2. A mere creation cannot have co-created the world.

3. A mere creation cannot be enough to atone for an infinite crime against holiness.

4. A mere creation cannot contain the principle of life itself inside it.

5. A mere creation cannot destroy the power of death in itself.

6. A mere creation cannot receive worship from every created thing.

7. A mere creation cannot hold all authority in heaven and earth.

8. A mere creation would have admonitions not to idolize or worship it.

9. A mere creation cannot potentially live inside of all human beings.

10. A mere creation would not even be directly associated with anything divine.

11. A mere creation cannot demand that nothing be loved more than it as it would be commanding idolatry.

12. A mere creation cannot call itself the only absolute way and truth.

At the point you are willing to accept all 12 things, it is virtually indistinguishable for me from God anyway, and Jesus is God to you whether you use the term "God" or not. The Father is just an order of rank above Jesus with the same attributes and this corresponds to Trinitarian theology.

I believe we can find ample Scriptural evidence to support the above 12 points in both Paul and the rest of Scripture. Also when certain verses began to make me feel unsure of this, I have prayed about this directly to God for many years and received personal confirmation that this is the truth.

So the question may well then be asked, "Why isn't it stated more clearly?" That's a good questions and I give a couple of reasons.

1. It is not a doctrine essential to salvation. It is very clear the 12 disciples during Christ's earthly minister did not at all fully realize who he was, and simply had a bare faith that he was a Savior, yet Jesus clearly says they were currently saved with their names written in heaven.

2. It is the "glory of kings to search out a matter" and all doctrine doesn't come by intellectually parsing the words of Scripture, but by direct revelation from God, as Jesus said "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you Peter."

In light of this, I invite anyone to continue on their journey with a sincere heart towards God and fervent prayer, and am confident that in the end, if we continue and do not quit with a true humble and teachable heart, the Spirit of God will always eventually get us to true beliefs.

I think we have more evidence than the disciples had and we must remember they were not born again filled with the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. All the books in the NT proclaim His Deity.

 

[e v e]

The Scriptures contain human constructs and Divine constructs. We need not be limited to solely human constructs. Flesh is flesh. Spirit is Spirit.

there is flesh in paradise - which is of His nature
not the type of nature here -
npsh, which means body and means soul..
the same! in paradise were not separated.

npsh is not the corrupt flesh of this earth

 

[360watt]

12 reasons I believe Jesus is God:

1. A mere creation cannot have eternally co-existed with God.

2. A mere creation cannot have co-created the world.

3. A mere creation cannot be enough to atone for an infinite crime against holiness.

4. A mere creation cannot contain the principle of life itself inside it.

5. A mere creation cannot destroy the power of death in itself.

6. A mere creation cannot receive worship from every created thing.

7. A mere creation cannot hold all authority in heaven and earth.

8. A mere creation would have admonitions not to idolize or worship it.

9. A mere creation cannot potentially live inside of all human beings.

10. A mere creation would not even be directly associated with anything divine.

11. A mere creation cannot demand that nothing be loved more than it as it would be commanding idolatry.

12. A mere creation cannot call itself the only absolute way and truth.

At the point you are willing to accept all 12 things, it is virtually indistinguishable for me from God anyway, and Jesus is God to you whether you use the term "God" or not. The Father is just an order of rank above Jesus with the same attributes and this corresponds to Trinitarian theology.

I believe we can find ample Scriptural evidence to support the above 12 points in both Paul and the rest of Scripture. Also when certain verses began to make me feel unsure of this, I have prayed about this directly to God for many years and received personal confirmation that this is the truth.

So the question may well then be asked, "Why isn't it stated more clearly?" That's a good questions and I give a couple of reasons.

1. It is not a doctrine essential to salvation. It is very clear the 12 disciples during Christ's earthly minister did not at all fully realize who he was, and simply had a bare faith that he was a Savior, yet Jesus clearly says they were currently saved with their names written in heaven.

2. It is the "glory of kings to search out a matter" and all doctrine doesn't come by intellectually parsing the words of Scripture, but by direct revelation from God, as Jesus said "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you Peter."

In light of this, I invite anyone to continue on their journey with a sincere heart towards God and fervent prayer, and am confident that in the end, if we continue and do not quit with a true humble and teachable heart, the Spirit of God will always eventually get us to true beliefs.

Also when Jesus said 'the Father is greater than I'. ..

He ascended to be one with the Father later after saying this.

If I say 'the president of the USA is greater than me'.... Is he a superior being?

No.. we are both human ...he is not ontologically superior to me. He is in a greater POSITION.. but not superior as a being.

Jesus...in the flesh was doing something akin to 'self limiting'... But was never inferior to the Father.

 

[Diserner]

Jesus...in the flesh was doing something akin to 'self limiting'... But was never inferior to the Father.

Excellent points, especially this one.

Too bad it makes you a heretic according to civic.