The Trinity made easy

[Wrangler]

You dodged the information concerning the prayer to Jesus in Acts 1:24-25 in post 86 because it refutes your heresy.

Wrong. You are confusing capitalization of "lord."

This is the next "Why the trinity is wrong" thread. So, thanks!

 

[Fred]

Wrong. You are confusing capitalization of "lord."

Irrelevant.

Jesus is still the proper recipient of this prayer.
Thanks again for dodging the evidence. Very telling.

 

[Wrangler]

Irrelevant.

Jesus is still the proper recipient of this prayer.

Irrelevant? The only way you could be correct is if the Apostles disobeyed Christ. He told them to pray to the Father but you are claiming by the title "lord" they are not.

Thanks for pointing out another reason for a thread on Why the trinity is wrong. Disobedient Apostles.

 

[atpollard]

Even the Rabbis know that Jesus has to logically equal being an idol for Christians:

We are seeking guidance from BLIND GUIDES?
(Those without ears to hear or eyes to see the truth that Jesus is the Messiah.)

 

[Fred]

Irrelevant? The only way you could be correct is if the Apostles disobeyed Christ. He told them to pray to the Father but you are claiming by the title "lord" they are not.

You still ignore the evidence I presented from Acts 1:24-25.

and you continue to ignore the evidence from post 95.

 

[Diserner]

We are seeking guidance from BLIND GUIDES?
(Those without ears to hear or eyes to see the truth that Jesus is the Messiah.)

Did you know "WRONG WAY" signs are there for a reason?

Think of it like that.

 

[praise_yeshua]

His position does not devalue Jesus. It places him right where he's supposed to be - the Son of God. Trinitarians are the ones who elevated the man Jesus to be on par with the Supreme God of the universe. Jesus was 100% man. He was divine but that doesn't make him co-equal to God the Father.

So you have access to the Father around Jesus Christ? Just how do you have a relation with the Father apart from Jesus Christ?

Tell me how Jesus is LESS than the Father.

 

[Wrangler]

You still ignore the evidence I presented from Acts 1:24-25.

No. I addressed that already. You are rationalizing that 'lord' in that instance refers to Jesus, which only can be correct if the Apostles disobeyed Christ in how to pray.

and you continue to ignore the evidence from post 95.

I saw no other evidence, only strained rationalization. Perhaps you can explain how 'the son of man' in Daniel = Jesus being God. There are too many disconnects as you've written it.

 

[Fred]

No. I addressed that already. You are rationalizing that 'lord' in that instance refers to Jesus, which only can be correct if the Apostles disobeyed Christ in how to pray.

You totally ignored the words used in the prayer in association with the Lord Jesus elsewhere.

I saw no other evidence, only strained rationalization.

Your excuse to turn a blind eye...eyes.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Trinitarians assert a context not in the text. Jesus did not say he is equal to God in some sense. He made the general statement that God is FAR greater.

That their position is untenable is seen in how they constantly have to add words to Scripture (not in essence but position) and impose an exegesis interpretation of language usage.

Given the monotheist text of all the writers of Scripture and Jesus himself saying the only true God is his Father, we have to take Jesus claim of inferiority at face value.

Regarding language usage, I recently watched a vid of Wilt Chamberlain talking to his team about to face Kareem Abdul Jabar. He said he used to be the best center in the league. It means he is admitting inferiority to Jabar; it does not mean he is claiming some equality with Jabar.

They are both human.

They are both men.

They are both professional basketball players.

But the text does not make such claims. Chamberlain admitted being inferior to Jabar and Jesus admitted being FAR inferior to God. Trinitarianism is such IDOLATRY, that they ignore our lord and saviors own words and their plain meaning.

I already posted the context. Jesus said these words to his disciples as a reason to celebrate because Jesus is going with God, who is FAR greater than he is.

So you enjoy downplaying someOne that God has exalted above every name? That doesn't seem wise at all.

So tell me how Jesus is LESS than the Father.

 

[atpollard]

Did you know "WRONG WAY" signs are there for a reason?

I do.
"WRONG WAY" signs are erected by people that understand Transportation, not by people that think cars are of the devil and we should all ride a horse.

Think of 'Rabbinical advice about Jesus' like a traffic sign erected by someone that thinks "cars are of the devil and we should all ride a horse".

 

[Diserner]

I do.
"WRONG WAY" signs are erected by people that understand Transportation, not by people that think cars are of the devil and we should all ride a horse.

Think of 'Rabbinical advice about Jesus' like a traffic sign erected by someone that thinks "cars are of the devil and we should all ride a horse".

I'd love to see what you do with Jesus' parables.

"Sheep are animals in the economy of husbandry, Jesus, they are not human beings."

"People are not literal soil with plant life, Jesus. That's like... some Buddhist thing."

"You are not light Jesus, you are not made of photons. Calling people 'Light' is for Greek philosophers and the scientifically illiterate."


I bet your great fun at parties.

 

[atpollard]

I bet your great fun at parties.

I am hilarious ... but I have that dry, British humor that most people miss.

 

[Diserner]

I am hilarious ... but I have that dry, British humor that most people miss.

I like dry humor, it's great.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I like dry humor, it's great.

"London Dry" anyone?.....

 

[civic]

I am hilarious ... but I have that dry, British humor that most people miss.

My son in law is British so I get it .

 

[360watt]

It's not different at all.

People talk this way all the time. Your mother and I are one on this issue. It means they are in agreement, not that they are the same person or Being.

The only reason Scripture tells us that Jesus had a God is because he is not God. Does it make sense to you that God has a God?

That isn't reasoning from scripture, Wrangler. You've already heard enough from others about Jesus' deity. The only thing I will lastly write, is on Jesus forgiving sin in the third person. In the bible.. Jesus forgave sin of those who hadn't directly offended Him.

I can't do that. Say Bob goes and hits you. And I have nothing to do with this interaction. I don't even know Bob personally. And then go over and say to Bob.. 'I forgive you'. No one in their right mind does that! They would accuse me of being out of my mind if I did that!

It's true that if I was annoyed at what Bob did.. and then had to forgive him later because it was burdening me.. then that would be normal.. but Jesus wasn't doing that. He was claiming power over the sin. He was claiming power to REMOVE sin. He gives eternal life!

You can't tell me a normal person can give eternal life to another. And neither could the disciples do that.. . who were given power from God.

On top of this.. who sent the Holy Spirit? Jesus did. That is some kind of power!

Anyway.. that's all from me. God bless.

 

[Johann]

THE TRINITY

Notice the activity of all three Persons of the Trinity in unified contexts. The term "trinity," first coined by Tertullian, is not a biblical word, but the concept is pervasive.

In the NT
the Gospels
Matt. 3:16-17; 28:19 (and parallels)
John 14:26
Acts — Acts 2:32-33, 38-39
Paul
Rom. 1:4-5; 5:1,5; 8:1-4,8-10
1 Cor. 2:8-10; 12:4-6
2 Cor. 1:21-22; 13:14
Gal. 4:4-6
Eph. 1:3-14,17; 2:18; 3:14-17; 4:4-6
1 Thess. 1:2-5
2 Thess. 2:13
Titus 3:4-6
Peter — 1 Pet. 1:2
Jude — vv. 20-21

A plurality in God is hinted at in the OT.
Use of PLURALS for God
Name Elohim is PLURAL , but when used of God always has a SINGULAR VERB
"Us" in Genesis 1:26-27 (see full notes online); 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8
"One" in the Shema (BDB 1033) of Deut. 6:4 can be PLURAL (as it is in Gen. 2:24; Ezek. 37:17; -
"The Angel of the Lord" was a visible representative of Deity
Genesis 16:7-13; 22:11-15; 31:11,13; 48:15-16
Exodus 3:2,4; 13:21; 14:19
Judges 2:1; 6:22-23; 13:3-22
Zechariah 3:1-2
God and His Spirit are separate, Gen. 1:1-2; Ps. 104:30; Isa. 63:9-11; Ezek. 37:13-14
God (YHWH) and Messiah (Adon) are separate, Ps. 45:6-7; 110:1; Zech. 2:8-11; 10:9-12
The Messiah and the Spirit are separate, Zech. 12:10
All three are mentioned in one context in Isa. 48:16; 61:1

The Deity of Jesus , and the NT verses: John 1:1-2; 5:18; 8:58; 10:30; 14:9; 17:11; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1) and the personality of the Spirit caused problems for the strict, monotheistic early believers.
Tertullian — subordinated the Son to the Father
Origen — subordinated the divine essence of the Son and the Spirit
Arius — denied Deity to the Son and Spirit
Monarchianism — believed in a successive chronological manifestation of the one God as Father, then Son, and then Spirit

The Trinity is a historically developed formulation informed by the biblical material.
the full Deity of Jesus, equal to the Father, was affirmed in A.D. 325 by the Council of Nicea (cf. John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13)
the full personality and Deity of the Spirit equal to the Father and Son was affirmed in A.D. 381 by the Council of Constantinople
the doctrine of the Trinity is fully expressed in Augustine's work De Trinitate. There is truly mystery here. But the NT affirms one eternal divine essence (monotheism) with three eternal personal manifestations (Father, Son, and Spirit).
For more information on the developed doctrinal understanding of the Trinity or Tri-Unity of God, see

Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology, 2nd ed., chapter 16, "God's Three-in-Oneness: The Trinity," pp. 340-367.
Hard Sayings of the Bible, John 1:1; "One God or Three?", pp. 490-492

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE TRINITY

The Trinity -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

Denying the Deity of Christ seems to be normative-in this kosmos.
THE DEITY OF CHRIST FROM THE OT (Micah 5:2)

The two lines from Micah 5:2, "His goings forth are from long ago" and "From the days of eternity," are parallel. The VERB, "going forth" (BDB 422, KB 425, Qal IMPERATIVE is very common. It was used in Micah eight times:

of the Lord's coming in Mic. 1:3
of God's law going forth in Mic. 4:2
of repentant Israel being restored in Mic. 7:9 (i.e., a new exodus, Mic. 7:15). It can refer to the Messiah's origin (Genenius, NRSV, NJB) or actions (cf. Mic. 4:4,5a).
These two poetic lines could refer to

the pre-existence of the Messiah (cf. Pro. 8:22-31; John 1:1,14-15,30; 8:56-59; 16:28; 17:5,24; 2 Cor. 8:9; Phil. 2:6-7; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3; 10:5-9)
a way of referring to famous descendants of the past (i.e., Noah, Abraham, or more probably, David).
This whole verse alludes to a Davidic king, of David's line, from David's hometown. David was viewed as the ideal king.

The term "eternity" (BDB 761) is 'olam. See SPECIAL TOPIC: FOREVER ('Olam).

The NIDOTTE, vol. 3, p. 347, which discusses 'olam, makes this comment,

"While it is tempting to see here a reference to the eternal preexistence of the Messiah, no such an idea is found in biblical or post-biblical Jewish literature before the 'Similitudes of Enoch' (first century B.C. ‒ first century A.D.; see I Enoch 48:2-6)."

I think, although there are hints in the OT of an incarnation, the Jewish leaders of Jesus' day were surprised at His claims of equality with God (e.g., Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; 8:58 and Paul, 2 Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:15; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13). A partial list of OT texts that have been used to assert the full deity of Jesus follows:

Ps. 2:7, quoted in Heb. 1:5 (see esp. 1:2-3)
Ps. 45:6-7 quoted in Heb. 1:8-9
Ps. 110:1 quoted in Heb. 1:13
Isa. 9:6; Jer. 23:5-6; Micah 5:2 alluded to in Luke 1:32
Dan. 7:13 quoted in Matt. 26:64; Mark14:62
Zech. 13:7 quoted in Matt. 26:31; Mark 14:27
Mal. 3:1 quoted in Mark 1:1-3; Luke 2:26-27
SPECIAL TOPIC: THE TRINITY, II

SPECIAL TOPIC: CHRIST JESUS AS LORD

Copyright © 2014 Bible Lessons International

Shalom @Wrangler
J.

 

[Wrangler]

Notice the activity of all three Persons of the Trinity in unified contexts.

I don't know what you mean by "unified" contexts.

Obviously, since there is no such thing as the trinity in Scripture, no such activity exists. However, what you present is a typical example of artificial dichotomy.

Let's take your first example. Matt. 3:16-17, the Baptism of Jesus. IF Jesus were God, a triune God, the Spirit of God could not come to him as it would already be there. Also, notice how fast and loose you play with terms. "the Spirit of God" cannot literally be so, like the Spirit of Joe Louis; it has to be a person with no name, right?

A plurality in God is hinted at in the OT.

Hinted at? That God is one and not plural is explicitly stated again and again.

 

[Johann]

Hinted at? That God is one and not plural is explicitly stated again and again.

Wrong-
The plurality of God in Judaism
Even more striking is the very word used in the Sh’ma to proclaim the oneness of God, echad. This word allows for a plurality or diversity within unity.

This can be seen especially clearly in several passages. In Genesis 1:5, 2:24, Ezra 2:64 and Ezekiel 37:17, the oneness is the result of combining evening and morning, man and wife, the individual members of an assembly, and two sticks, respectively.

There is however, another word in Hebrew to describe an indivisible unity, namely yachid.

It so happens that the scholar Maimonides, when composing his famous Thirteen Articles of Faith, substituted yachid for echad in describing the nature of God. Ever since, the notion of an indivisible unity of God has been fostered in Judaism; nevertheless, the Bible gives ample instances to show that there is a diversity within God’s unity.

The Zohar, the foundation book of Jewish mysticism, recognized that the idea of a plurality-in-unity is not foreign to Jewish thinking. While the medieval mystics’ idea is different from the Christian idea of the Trinity, the basic idea of a plurality within the one God still holds. The passage from the Zohar, commenting on the Sh’ma, reads as follows:

“Hear, O Israel, YHVH Elohenu YHVH is one.” These three are one. How can the three Names be one? Only through the perception of Faith: in the vision of the Holy Spirit, in the beholding of the hidden eyes alone. The mystery of the audible voice is similar to this, for though it is one yet it consists of three elements–fire, air, and water, which have, however, become one in the mystery of the voice. Even so it is with the mystery of the threefold Divine manifestations designated by YHVH Elohenu YHVH–three modes which yet form one unity.2

Portrayals of God from Hebrew Scripture

In fact, beside God Himself, there are two other personalities in the pages of the Hebrew Scriptures who are portrayed as distinct from, yet somehow the same as God. These other two are the angel of the Lord, and the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit.

The angel of the Lord is mentioned a number of times but is also identified with God Himself. For instance, in Genesis 16:7 and 16:13 He is called respectively the angel of the Lord and then the Lord. Another example would be Genesis 22:11 and 22:12. This particular individual is both distinct from and identified with God Himself.

Then there is the Spirit of God. God’s Spirit is spoken of in the Scriptures as a personality of His own, yet identified as God. Such passages include Genesis 1:2, Psalm 51:13, or Isaiah 11:2.

Israel and the nations

Because Israel was surrounded by polytheists in ancient times and tended to absorb the idolatry of those nations, the Hebrew Scriptures emphasized God’s oneness more than His “tri-unity.” But by the days of the New Testament, when idolatry was no longer a problem in Israel, the idea of God’s “tri-unity” was more clearly articulated in the Scriptures.

The three personalities just mentioned are portrayed in the New Testament as God the Father, God the Son (the Messiah, Jesus) and God the Spirit–yet all without compromising the fundamental affirmation of the Sh’ma: “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One,” an affirmation which Jesus himself termed “the most important commandment.”

You might protest, “But don’t Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God? But if Jesus is God, how can he be the Son of God? Look, you’re making a man into God, and on top of that, God doesn’t have a son!”

Again, not true! In Exodus 4:22-23, Israel is called God’s “son.” The King of Israel is referred to as God’s “son” in I Chronicles 17:13.That the Messiah would also be God’s son is stated in the Talmud:

Our Rabbis taught, The Holy One, blessed be He, will say to the Messiah, the son of David (May he reveal himself speedily in our days),’Ask of me anything and I will give it to thee, as it is said [Ps. 2:7,8]. I will tell of the decree: [The Lord hath said unto me, “Thou art my son;]l this day have I begotten thee, ask of me and I will give the nations for thy inheritance.”

Messiah as a form of God’s presence

The idea in the Scriptures is not that a man became God–God forbid—but that the Messiah would himself be God coming as a man.

Isaiah 9:6 portrays the coming of the Messiah in these terms: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

But if God is indeed a “tri-unity,” then it is possible for the Messiah both to be called God and also to exist in a relationship characterized as “son of God.” This is the conclusion we Jews who believe in Jesus are driven to as we study the Scriptures. With our fellow Jews, we affirm that “the Lord our God, the Lord is one”–a oneness characterized by a “tri-unity.”

End Notes
Maimonides is one of the greatest figures in Jewish history. Born in Spain in 1135, he was known as a rabbinic scholar, a philosopher, and even a physician.Maimonides is known among rabbinic students as “Rambam,” an acronym for his Hebrew name “Rabbi Moses ben Maimon.” His Thirteen Articles of Faith are accepted by Orthodox Jews today as a binding statement of belief. Maimonides died in 1204.

Zohar, III: Exodus 43b, Soncino translation.

Sukkah 52a, Soncino translation.

This content was adapted from an earlier Jews for Jesus article.

Don't Christians Believe in Three Gods? — Jews for Jesus

It’s a very common misrepresentation that while Jews believe in one God, Christians believe in three. The fact is that Christianity is as firmly monotheistic as Judaism. What Christians believe is that this one God exists. This belief is not based upon philosophical arguments, but on the Scriptures–

www.jewsforjesus.co.za

From a Jewish site-and I can give you many more-but I am not here to convince you brother.
Johann.