The Trinity made easy
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
Wrangler
Active Member
Wrong. You are confusing capitalization of "lord."
This is the next "Why the trinity is wrong" thread. So, thanks!
Irrelevant.
Jesus is still the proper recipient of this prayer.
Thanks again for dodging the evidence. Very telling.
Wrangler
Active Member
Irrelevant? The only way you could be correct is if the Apostles disobeyed Christ. He told them to pray to the Father but you are claiming by the title "lord" they are not.
Thanks for pointing out another reason for a thread on Why the trinity is wrong. Disobedient Apostles.
atpollard
Active Member
We are seeking guidance from BLIND GUIDES?
(Those without ears to hear or eyes to see the truth that Jesus is the Messiah.)
You still ignore the evidence I presented from Acts 1:24-25.
and you continue to ignore the evidence from post 95.
Diserner
Active Member
praise_yeshua
Active Member
So you have access to the Father around Jesus Christ? Just how do you have a relation with the Father apart from Jesus Christ?
Tell me how Jesus is LESS than the Father.
Wrangler
Active Member
No. I addressed that already. You are rationalizing that 'lord' in that instance refers to Jesus, which only can be correct if the Apostles disobeyed Christ in how to pray.
I saw no other evidence, only strained rationalization. Perhaps you can explain how 'the son of man' in Daniel = Jesus being God. There are too many disconnects as you've written it.
You totally ignored the words used in the prayer in association with the Lord Jesus elsewhere.
Your excuse to turn a blind eye...eyes.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
So you enjoy downplaying someOne that God has exalted above every name? That doesn't seem wise at all.
So tell me how Jesus is LESS than the Father.
atpollard
Active Member
I do.
"WRONG WAY" signs are erected by people that understand Transportation, not by people that think cars are of the devil and we should all ride a horse.
Think of 'Rabbinical advice about Jesus' like a traffic sign erected by someone that thinks "cars are of the devil and we should all ride a horse".
Diserner
Active Member
I'd love to see what you do with Jesus' parables.
"Sheep are animals in the economy of husbandry, Jesus, they are not human beings."
"People are not literal soil with plant life, Jesus. That's like... some Buddhist thing."
"You are not light Jesus, you are not made of photons. Calling people 'Light' is for Greek philosophers and the scientifically illiterate."
I bet your great fun at parties.
atpollard
Active Member
I am hilarious ... but I have that dry, British humor that most people miss.
Diserner
Active Member
I am hilarious ... but I have that dry, British humor that most people miss.
I like dry humor, it's great.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
civic
Active Member
My son in law is British so I get it .I am hilarious ... but I have that dry, British humor that most people miss.
360watt
Active Member
That isn't reasoning from scripture, Wrangler. You've already heard enough from others about Jesus' deity. The only thing I will lastly write, is on Jesus forgiving sin in the third person. In the bible.. Jesus forgave sin of those who hadn't directly offended Him.
I can't do that. Say Bob goes and hits you. And I have nothing to do with this interaction. I don't even know Bob personally. And then go over and say to Bob.. 'I forgive you'. No one in their right mind does that! They would accuse me of being out of my mind if I did that!
It's true that if I was annoyed at what Bob did.. and then had to forgive him later because it was burdening me.. then that would be normal.. but Jesus wasn't doing that. He was claiming power over the sin. He was claiming power to REMOVE sin. He gives eternal life!
You can't tell me a normal person can give eternal life to another. And neither could the disciples do that.. . who were given power from God.
On top of this.. who sent the Holy Spirit? Jesus did. That is some kind of power!
Anyway.. that's all from me. God bless.
Johann
Active Member
THE TRINITY
Notice the activity of all three Persons of the Trinity in unified contexts. The term "trinity," first coined by Tertullian, is not a biblical word, but the concept is pervasive.
In the NT
the Gospels
Matt. 3:16-17; 28:19 (and parallels)
John 14:26
Acts — Acts 2:32-33, 38-39
Paul
Rom. 1:4-5; 5:1,5; 8:1-4,8-10
1 Cor. 2:8-10; 12:4-6
2 Cor. 1:21-22; 13:14
Gal. 4:4-6
Eph. 1:3-14,17; 2:18; 3:14-17; 4:4-6
1 Thess. 1:2-5
2 Thess. 2:13
Titus 3:4-6
Peter — 1 Pet. 1:2
Jude — vv. 20-21
A plurality in God is hinted at in the OT.
Use of PLURALS for God
Name Elohim is PLURAL , but when used of God always has a SINGULAR VERB
"Us" in Genesis 1:26-27 (see full notes online); 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8
"One" in the Shema (BDB 1033) of Deut. 6:4 can be PLURAL (as it is in Gen. 2:24; Ezek. 37:17; -
"The Angel of the Lord" was a visible representative of Deity
Genesis 16:7-13; 22:11-15; 31:11,13; 48:15-16
Exodus 3:2,4; 13:21; 14:19
Judges 2:1; 6:22-23; 13:3-22
Zechariah 3:1-2
God and His Spirit are separate, Gen. 1:1-2; Ps. 104:30; Isa. 63:9-11; Ezek. 37:13-14
God (YHWH) and Messiah (Adon) are separate, Ps. 45:6-7; 110:1; Zech. 2:8-11; 10:9-12
The Messiah and the Spirit are separate, Zech. 12:10
All three are mentioned in one context in Isa. 48:16; 61:1
The Deity of Jesus , and the NT verses: John 1:1-2; 5:18; 8:58; 10:30; 14:9; 17:11; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1) and the personality of the Spirit caused problems for the strict, monotheistic early believers.
Tertullian — subordinated the Son to the Father
Origen — subordinated the divine essence of the Son and the Spirit
Arius — denied Deity to the Son and Spirit
Monarchianism — believed in a successive chronological manifestation of the one God as Father, then Son, and then Spirit
The Trinity is a historically developed formulation informed by the biblical material.
the full Deity of Jesus, equal to the Father, was affirmed in A.D. 325 by the Council of Nicea (cf. John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13)
the full personality and Deity of the Spirit equal to the Father and Son was affirmed in A.D. 381 by the Council of Constantinople
the doctrine of the Trinity is fully expressed in Augustine's work De Trinitate. There is truly mystery here. But the NT affirms one eternal divine essence (monotheism) with three eternal personal manifestations (Father, Son, and Spirit).
For more information on the developed doctrinal understanding of the Trinity or Tri-Unity of God, see
Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology, 2nd ed., chapter 16, "God's Three-in-Oneness: The Trinity," pp. 340-367.
Hard Sayings of the Bible, John 1:1; "One God or Three?", pp. 490-492
Denying the Deity of Christ seems to be normative-in this kosmos.
THE DEITY OF CHRIST FROM THE OT (Micah 5:2)
The two lines from Micah 5:2, "His goings forth are from long ago" and "From the days of eternity," are parallel. The VERB, "going forth" (BDB 422, KB 425, Qal IMPERATIVE is very common. It was used in Micah eight times:
of the Lord's coming in Mic. 1:3
of God's law going forth in Mic. 4:2
of repentant Israel being restored in Mic. 7:9 (i.e., a new exodus, Mic. 7:15). It can refer to the Messiah's origin (Genenius, NRSV, NJB) or actions (cf. Mic. 4:4,5a).
These two poetic lines could refer to
the pre-existence of the Messiah (cf. Pro. 8:22-31; John 1:1,14-15,30; 8:56-59; 16:28; 17:5,24; 2 Cor. 8:9; Phil. 2:6-7; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3; 10:5-9)
a way of referring to famous descendants of the past (i.e., Noah, Abraham, or more probably, David).
This whole verse alludes to a Davidic king, of David's line, from David's hometown. David was viewed as the ideal king.
The term "eternity" (BDB 761) is 'olam. See SPECIAL TOPIC: FOREVER ('Olam).
The NIDOTTE, vol. 3, p. 347, which discusses 'olam, makes this comment,
"While it is tempting to see here a reference to the eternal preexistence of the Messiah, no such an idea is found in biblical or post-biblical Jewish literature before the 'Similitudes of Enoch' (first century B.C. ‒ first century A.D.; see I Enoch 48:2-6)."
I think, although there are hints in the OT of an incarnation, the Jewish leaders of Jesus' day were surprised at His claims of equality with God (e.g., Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; 8:58 and Paul, 2 Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:15; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13). A partial list of OT texts that have been used to assert the full deity of Jesus follows:
Ps. 2:7, quoted in Heb. 1:5 (see esp. 1:2-3)
Ps. 45:6-7 quoted in Heb. 1:8-9
Ps. 110:1 quoted in Heb. 1:13
Isa. 9:6; Jer. 23:5-6; Micah 5:2 alluded to in Luke 1:32
Dan. 7:13 quoted in Matt. 26:64; Mark14:62
Zech. 13:7 quoted in Matt. 26:31; Mark 14:27
Mal. 3:1 quoted in Mark 1:1-3; Luke 2:26-27
SPECIAL TOPIC: THE TRINITY, II
SPECIAL TOPIC: CHRIST JESUS AS LORD
Copyright © 2014 Bible Lessons International
Shalom @Wrangler
J.
Notice the activity of all three Persons of the Trinity in unified contexts. The term "trinity," first coined by Tertullian, is not a biblical word, but the concept is pervasive.
In the NT
the Gospels
Matt. 3:16-17; 28:19 (and parallels)
John 14:26
Acts — Acts 2:32-33, 38-39
Paul
Rom. 1:4-5; 5:1,5; 8:1-4,8-10
1 Cor. 2:8-10; 12:4-6
2 Cor. 1:21-22; 13:14
Gal. 4:4-6
Eph. 1:3-14,17; 2:18; 3:14-17; 4:4-6
1 Thess. 1:2-5
2 Thess. 2:13
Titus 3:4-6
Peter — 1 Pet. 1:2
Jude — vv. 20-21
A plurality in God is hinted at in the OT.
Use of PLURALS for God
Name Elohim is PLURAL , but when used of God always has a SINGULAR VERB
"Us" in Genesis 1:26-27 (see full notes online); 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8
"One" in the Shema (BDB 1033) of Deut. 6:4 can be PLURAL (as it is in Gen. 2:24; Ezek. 37:17; -
"The Angel of the Lord" was a visible representative of Deity
Genesis 16:7-13; 22:11-15; 31:11,13; 48:15-16
Exodus 3:2,4; 13:21; 14:19
Judges 2:1; 6:22-23; 13:3-22
Zechariah 3:1-2
God and His Spirit are separate, Gen. 1:1-2; Ps. 104:30; Isa. 63:9-11; Ezek. 37:13-14
God (YHWH) and Messiah (Adon) are separate, Ps. 45:6-7; 110:1; Zech. 2:8-11; 10:9-12
The Messiah and the Spirit are separate, Zech. 12:10
All three are mentioned in one context in Isa. 48:16; 61:1
The Deity of Jesus , and the NT verses: John 1:1-2; 5:18; 8:58; 10:30; 14:9; 17:11; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1) and the personality of the Spirit caused problems for the strict, monotheistic early believers.
Tertullian — subordinated the Son to the Father
Origen — subordinated the divine essence of the Son and the Spirit
Arius — denied Deity to the Son and Spirit
Monarchianism — believed in a successive chronological manifestation of the one God as Father, then Son, and then Spirit
The Trinity is a historically developed formulation informed by the biblical material.
the full Deity of Jesus, equal to the Father, was affirmed in A.D. 325 by the Council of Nicea (cf. John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13)
the full personality and Deity of the Spirit equal to the Father and Son was affirmed in A.D. 381 by the Council of Constantinople
the doctrine of the Trinity is fully expressed in Augustine's work De Trinitate. There is truly mystery here. But the NT affirms one eternal divine essence (monotheism) with three eternal personal manifestations (Father, Son, and Spirit).
For more information on the developed doctrinal understanding of the Trinity or Tri-Unity of God, see
Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology, 2nd ed., chapter 16, "God's Three-in-Oneness: The Trinity," pp. 340-367.
Hard Sayings of the Bible, John 1:1; "One God or Three?", pp. 490-492
SPECIAL TOPIC: THE TRINITY
The Trinity -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).
www.freebiblecommentary.org
Denying the Deity of Christ seems to be normative-in this kosmos.
THE DEITY OF CHRIST FROM THE OT (Micah 5:2)
The two lines from Micah 5:2, "His goings forth are from long ago" and "From the days of eternity," are parallel. The VERB, "going forth" (BDB 422, KB 425, Qal IMPERATIVE is very common. It was used in Micah eight times:
of the Lord's coming in Mic. 1:3
of God's law going forth in Mic. 4:2
of repentant Israel being restored in Mic. 7:9 (i.e., a new exodus, Mic. 7:15). It can refer to the Messiah's origin (Genenius, NRSV, NJB) or actions (cf. Mic. 4:4,5a).
These two poetic lines could refer to
the pre-existence of the Messiah (cf. Pro. 8:22-31; John 1:1,14-15,30; 8:56-59; 16:28; 17:5,24; 2 Cor. 8:9; Phil. 2:6-7; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3; 10:5-9)
a way of referring to famous descendants of the past (i.e., Noah, Abraham, or more probably, David).
This whole verse alludes to a Davidic king, of David's line, from David's hometown. David was viewed as the ideal king.
The term "eternity" (BDB 761) is 'olam. See SPECIAL TOPIC: FOREVER ('Olam).
The NIDOTTE, vol. 3, p. 347, which discusses 'olam, makes this comment,
"While it is tempting to see here a reference to the eternal preexistence of the Messiah, no such an idea is found in biblical or post-biblical Jewish literature before the 'Similitudes of Enoch' (first century B.C. ‒ first century A.D.; see I Enoch 48:2-6)."
I think, although there are hints in the OT of an incarnation, the Jewish leaders of Jesus' day were surprised at His claims of equality with God (e.g., Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; 8:58 and Paul, 2 Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:15; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13). A partial list of OT texts that have been used to assert the full deity of Jesus follows:
Ps. 2:7, quoted in Heb. 1:5 (see esp. 1:2-3)
Ps. 45:6-7 quoted in Heb. 1:8-9
Ps. 110:1 quoted in Heb. 1:13
Isa. 9:6; Jer. 23:5-6; Micah 5:2 alluded to in Luke 1:32
Dan. 7:13 quoted in Matt. 26:64; Mark14:62
Zech. 13:7 quoted in Matt. 26:31; Mark 14:27
Mal. 3:1 quoted in Mark 1:1-3; Luke 2:26-27
SPECIAL TOPIC: THE TRINITY, II
SPECIAL TOPIC: CHRIST JESUS AS LORD
Copyright © 2014 Bible Lessons International
Shalom @Wrangler
J.
Wrangler
Active Member
I don't know what you mean by "unified" contexts.
Obviously, since there is no such thing as the trinity in Scripture, no such activity exists. However, what you present is a typical example of artificial dichotomy.
Let's take your first example. Matt. 3:16-17, the Baptism of Jesus. IF Jesus were God, a triune God, the Spirit of God could not come to him as it would already be there. Also, notice how fast and loose you play with terms. "the Spirit of God" cannot literally be so, like the Spirit of Joe Louis; it has to be a person with no name, right?
Hinted at? That God is one and not plural is explicitly stated again and again.
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