Johann
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Already answered and thoroughly debunked.
J.
The Trinity made easy
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J.
I burst out laughing when you called out ....... on his desperate appeal to an Imam. Islam is the sworn spiritual enemy of Christianity and ......... is appealing to our sworn enemies! My goodness! How low they will go. They're willing to sell their souls to anyone in order to appease their Uniate god.
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Johann
Well-known member
Is the Messiah God the Father?
In order to deny the explicit witness that Isaiah 9:6 provides concerning the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ some Muslims have come up with some fanciful responses.
For instance, Muslims assert that if this is a Messianic text then Jesus must be the Father since he is called "Everlasting Father." Yet if he is the Father then the Trinity must be false since the doctrine teaches that Jesus is not the Father.
The problem with this argument is that it commits the fallacy of equivocation, assuming that the term "Father" carries the same meaning at all times. Yet we know from the Holy Bible that "Father" can carry a whole range of meanings as the following examples clearly demonstrate:
"‘I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.’ ‘Abraham is our father,’ they answered. ‘If you were Abraham's children,’ said Jesus, ‘then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the things your own father does.’ ‘We are not illegitimate children,’ they protested. ‘The only Father we have is God himself.’ Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.’" John 8:38-42
In this passage both God and Abraham are said to be the F/father of the Jews. Therefore, applying the logic of the Muslims at this point we would end up with Abraham being God the Father!
"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring-not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written: 'I have made you a father of many nations.' He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed - the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were." Romans 4:11-17
Again, applying the Muslim argument we would once again have to conclude that Abraham is God the Father since he is said to be the father of all believers. This means that Paul is also God the Father as well:
"I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel." 1 Corinthians 4:14-15
In light of the preceding examples the readers can see that the term "Father" can mean different things in different contexts. For instance, the word can mean Source, Creator and/or Author as the following citations prove:
"But you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name." Isaiah 63:16
Here, God is referred to as Father in his role as Israel's Redeemer. Hence, the term in this context refers to God as the One who protects his people much like a father protects his children.
"Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand." Isaiah 64:8
"Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?" Malachi 2:10
The expression Father in these passages means that God is the Creator or Life-giver.
With the foregoing in perspective the Lord Jesus is called Everlasting Father in the sense that he is both the Source and Giver of eternal life, the One who cares for and preserves his people. This understanding bears out in light of the fact that the literal Hebrew phrase in Isaiah 9:6 is not "Everlasting Father," but "Father of Eternity" (Hebrew, Abi Ad). As Dr. Robert A. Morey noted:
"In the Hebrew the word 'Father is first and then follows the word ‘eternal.’ How to translate these words is difficult. Some translations are:
‘Father of futurity’ Rotherham
‘Father of the world to come’ Knox
‘Father of eternity’ Hengstenberg, Plumptre, Young
‘the Father of the age’ Calvin
‘Eternal Father’ Hengstenberg
‘The Giver of eternal life’ Alexander
"After a great deal of research on the many issues involved, we have translated... as ‘Father of eternal life.’ Calvin correctly pointed out, ‘The name Father is put for Author.’
"The word… ‘father’ thus does not mean the One who possesses eternity but the One who gives it to others. The word... ‘eternal’ is not the normal word for absolute eternity. Thus, we conclude that it means that the Son of God will be the Author of eternal life for those who believe in Him." (Morey, Trinity – Evidence and Issues [World Bible Publishers, Inc., Iowa Falls, IA 1996], Chapter Eleven. God The Son, pp. 184-185 bold emphasis ours)
This is precisely the picture the NT gives of the Lord Jesus Christ, namely that he is the Source of eternal life, the One who sustains his people forever, being the Head of a new creation:
"In him was life, and that life was the light of men." John 1:4
"Then Jesus declared, ‘I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.’" John 6:35-40
"‘But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.’ … Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.’" John 6:50-51, 53-58
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.’" John 10:27-30
"Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise again.’ Martha answered, ‘I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.’ Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ‘Yes, Lord,’ she told him, ‘I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world.’" John 11:23-27
"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: ‘Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.’" John 17:1-2
"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Romans 5:15-19
"You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. You killed the Author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this." Acts 3:14-15
"who has saved us and called us to a holy life-not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." 2 Timothy 1:9-10
"In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the Author of their salvation perfect through suffering." Hebrews 2:10
"Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the Source of eternal salvation for all who obey him." Hebrews 5:8-9
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2
Thus, Jesus is not God the Father, but God the Son who gives life and preserves his flock for ever and ever.
@Wrangler Keep your Comments about other posts not about the posters please.
Johann.
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Johann
Well-known member
What about the other so-called mighty gods?
Further attempts have been made by Muslim propagandists to deny that Isaiah 9:6 identifies the Messiah as the Mighty God.
One such Muslim neophyte is Sam Zaatari who, in his desperation, appeals to the eisegesis of Unitarian "Christians" to argue that El Gibbor really means "Mighty Hero"! (*)
For instance, Zaatari’s source appeals to Ezekiel 31:11 and 32:12 to show where the word El Gibbor (as well as its plural) is used in relation to others. Here, Zaatari seems to be mistaken since Ezekiel 31:11 does not use El Gibbor but simply El.
"I will give it into the hand of a mighty one (el) of the nations. He shall surely deal with it as its wickedness deserves. I have cast it out." Ezekiel 31:11
He must have also meant Ezekiel 32:21, not 12 since this latter verse uses the word gibborim, not eley gibborim which is the plural form of El Gibbor.
By appealing to these passages Muslims such as Zaatari think that they have found a way of refuting the doctrine of the Trinity and the OT witness to the absolute Deity of the Lord Jesus.
Yet there are several problems with this desperate approach, not the least of which is just because there may be other so-called mighty gods this doesn’t necessarily mean that Isaiah was placing the Messiah in this same category.
Muslims are assuming that the prophet was simply calling the Messiah a mighty one as opposed to identifying this Davidic King as the human appearance of Yahweh God. This is simply a non-sequitor since it does not follow that the Messiah is not Yahweh simply because there are others who are called mighty gods. After all, would we assume that Yahweh is also in this same category of mighty gods seeing that he, too, is called the Mighty God? Of course not.
Second, these so-called mighty gods are the gentile leaders and kings of the nations, as the surrounding context shows:
"In the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: ‘Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt, and send them down, her and the daughters of majestic nations, to the world below, to those who have gone down to THE PIT: Whom do you surpass in beauty? Go down and be laid to rest with the uncircumcised.’ They shall fall amid those who are slain by the sword. Egypt is delivered to the sword; drag her away, and all her multitudes. The mighty chiefs (eley gibborim) shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: ‘They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’ Assyria is there, and all her company, its graves all around it, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, whose graves are set in the uttermost parts of THE PIT; and her company is all around her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who spread terror in the land of the living. Elam is there, and all her multitude around her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who went down uncircumcised into the world below, who spread their terror in the land of the living; and they bear their shame with those who go down to THE PIT. They have made her a bed among the slain with all her multitude, her graves all around it, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; for terror of them was spread in the land of the living, and they bear their shame with those who go down to THE PIT; they are placed among the slain. Meshech-Tubal is there, and all her multitude, her graves all around it, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; for they spread their terror in the land of the living. And they do not lie with THE MIGHTY (giborim), THE FALLEN FROM AMONG THE UNCIRCUMCISED, who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war, whose swords were laid under their heads, and whose iniquities are upon their bones; for the terror of the MIGHTY MEN (giborim) was in the land of the living. But as for you, you shall be broken and lie among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword. Edom is there, her kings and all her princes, who for all their might are laid with those who are killed by the sword; they lie with the uncircumcised, with those who go down to THE PIT. The princes of the north are there, all of them, and all the Sidonians, who have gone down in shame with the slain, for all the terror that they caused by their might; they lie uncircumcised with those who are slain by the sword, and bear their shame with those who go down to THE PIT. When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD. For I spread terror in the land of the living; and he shall be laid to rest among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword, Pharaoh and all his multitude, declares the Lord GOD.’" Ezekiel 32:17-32
From the preceding context we can see that this refers to the fall of Pharaoh to the grave where the dead heathen kings are.
With this in mind the one point that the readers need to remember is that the inspired Scriptures speak out against viewing mere human rulers as gods of any kind. Note, for instance, what Ezekiel says concerning the king of Tyre:
"The word of the LORD came to me: ‘Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because your heart is proud, and you have said, ‘I am a god (el), I sit in the seat of the gods (elohim), in the heart of the seas,’ yet you are but A MAN, and NO god (el), though you make your heart like the heart of a god- you are indeed wiser than Daniel; no secret is hidden from you; by your wisdom and your understanding you have made wealth for yourself, and have gathered gold and silver into your treasuries; by your great wisdom in your trade you have increased your wealth, and your heart has become proud in your wealth- therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you make your heart like the heart of a god (elohim), therefore, behold, I will bring foreigners upon you, the most ruthless of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom and defile your splendor. They shall thrust you down into THE PIT, and you shall die the death of the slain in the heart of the seas. Will you still say, ‘I am a god (elohim),’ in the presence of those who kill you, though you are but A MAN, and NO god (el), in the hands of those who slay you? You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of foreigners; for I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD."’" Ezekiel 28:1-10
Yahweh rebukes a gentile king for thinking that he was a god when in fact he was nothing more than a mere man.
The prophet Isaiah himself rebukes gentile kings such as the king of Babylon for believing that they were gods:
"When the LORD has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: ‘How the oppressor has ceased, the insolent fury ceased! The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, the scepter of rulers, that struck the peoples in wrath with unceasing blows, that ruled the nations in anger with unrelenting persecution. The whole earth is at rest and quiet; they break forth into singing. The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, "Since you were laid low, no woodcutter comes up against us." Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were LEADERS OF THE EARTH; it raises from their thrones all who were KINGS OF THE NATIONS. All of them will answer and say to you: "You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!" Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are laid as a bed beneath you, and worms are your covers. How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to SHEOL, to the far reaches of the pit. Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you: "Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert And overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?" All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb;’" Isaiah 14:3-18
God destroys the Babylonian ruler for thinking that he could be like God, and even brings him down to the pit to be where the other heathen kings dwell. Babylon is further rebuked elsewhere in Isaiah for claiming the very prerogatives of Yahweh:
"… Now therefore hear this, you lover of pleasures, who sit securely, Who say in your heart, ‘I am, and there is no one besides me; I shall not sit as a widow or know the loss of children’: These two things shall come to you in a moment, in one day; the loss of children and widowhood shall come upon you in full measure, in spite of your many sorceries and the great power of your enchantments. You felt secure in your wickedness, you said, ‘No one sees me’; Your wisdom and your knowledge led you astray, and you said in your heart, ‘I am, and there is no one besides me.’" Isaiah 47:8-10
Assyria was another nation which was chastised for thinking that it too was a god:
"And he will stretch out his hand against the north and destroy Assyria, and he will make Nineveh a desolation, a dry waste like the desert. Herds shall lie down in her midst, all kinds of beasts; even the owl and the hedgehog shall lodge in her capitals; a voice shall hoot in the window; devastation will be on the threshold; for her cedar work will be laid bare. This is the exultant city that lived securely, that said in her heart, ‘I am, and there is no one else.’ What a desolation she has become, a lair for wild beasts! Everyone who passes by her hisses and shakes his fist." Zephaniah 2:13-15
And:
"Then the Rabshakeh stood and called out in a loud voice in the language of Judah: ‘Hear the words of the great king, the king of Assyria! Thus says the king: "Do not let Hezekiah deceive you, for he will not be able to deliver you. Do not let Hezekiah make you trust in the LORD by saying, ‘The LORD will surely deliver us. This city will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria.’ Do not listen to Hezekiah. For thus says the king of Assyria: Make your peace with me and come out to me. Then each one of you will eat of his own vine, and each one of his own fig tree, and each one of you will drink the water of his own cistern, until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of grain and wine, a land of bread and vineyards. Beware lest Hezekiah mislead you by saying, ‘The LORD will deliver us.’ Has any of the gods of the nations DELIVERED his land OUT OF THE HAND of the king of Assyria? Where are the gods of Hamath and Arpad? Where are the gods of Sepharvaim? Have they delivered Samaria OUT OF MY HANDS? Who among all the gods of these lands have DELIVERED their lands OUT OF MY HAND, that the LORD should DELIVER Jerusalem OUT OF MY HAND?"’" Isaiah 36:13-20
Again:
"The Rabshakeh returned, and found the king of Assyria fighting against Libnah, for he had heard that the king had left Lachish. Now the king heard concerning Tirhakah king of Cush, ‘He has set out to fight against you.’ And when he heard it, he sent messengers to Hezekiah, saying, ‘Thus shall you speak to Hezekiah king of Judah: "Do not let your God in whom you trust deceive you by promising that Jerusalem will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria. Behold, you have heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all lands, devoting them to destruction. And shall you be delivered? Have the gods of the nations delivered them, the nations that my fathers destroyed, Gozan, Haran, Rezeph, and the people of Eden who were in Telassar? Where is the king of Hamath, the king of Arpad, the king of the city of Sepharvaim, the king of Hena, or the king of Ivvah?"’" Isaiah 37:8-13
Now notice God’s response to Hezekiah’s prayer concerning the taunts of the Assyrian army:
"Hezekiah received the letter from the hand of the messengers, and read it; and Hezekiah went up to the house of the LORD, and spread it before the LORD. And Hezekiah prayed to the LORD: ‘O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, who is enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, YOU ALONE, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth. Incline your ear, O LORD, and hear; open your eyes, O LORD, and see; and hear all the words of Sennacherib, which he has sent to mock the living God. Truly, O LORD, the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations and their lands, and have cast their gods into the fire. For they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone. Therefore they were destroyed. So now, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that YOU ALONE are the LORD’… Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not come into this city or shoot an arrow there or come before it with a shield or cast up a siege mound against it. By the way that he came, by the same he shall return, and he shall not come into this city, declares the LORD. For I will defend this city to save it, for my own sake and for the sake of my servant David. And the angel of the LORD went out and struck down a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies. Then Sennacherib king of Assyria departed and returned home and lived at Nineveh. And as he was worshiping in the house of Nisroch his god, Adrammelech and Sharezer, his sons, struck him down with the sword. And after they escaped into the land of Ararat, Esarhaddon his son reigned in his place." Isaiah 37:14-20, 33-38
Hezekiah beseeches Yahweh to save his people from the Assyrians in order to show that he alone is God. This indicates that, as far as the biblical writers are concerned, there are no other gods which exist alongside Yahweh.
In light of the foregoing it seems evident that Ezekiel 32:21 and 31:11 are not saying that these heathen rulers were actually gods, albeit in a lesser sense than Yahweh. Nor are the terms being used metaphorically to denote rulers who were mighty, as Zaatari’s source erroneously assumes. From the overall context of the inspired Scriptures we can safely conclude that these gentile kings are ironically and sarcastically called gods, e.g. they are rulers who were wrongly considered gods by the peoples and yet died a humiliating and shameful death, dying like any other mere mortal.
This is completely unlike the context of Isaiah 9 where an inspired prophet gives the child the very titles of God himself as an indication of his character and rule.
Moreover, Zaatari’s anti-Trinitarian source conveniently turns to the book of Ezekiel while ignoring the fact that Isaiah uses the exact phrase El Gibbor in 10:21 in reference to the one true God, Yahweh. Thus, if this phrase means "Mighty Hero" then Isaiah is identifying both Yahweh and the Messiah as this one Mighty Hero who defends and fights for God’s people. After all, the Messiah is El Gibbor in the same sense that Yahweh is since he is given all of the very titles which Isaiah applies in other places to God, even though the prophet emphatically stresses the point that there is only one true God (El, Elohim):
"‘You are my witnesses,’ declares the LORD, ‘and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.’" Isaiah 43:10-11
"This is what the LORD says— Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come— yes, let him foretell what will come. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." Isaiah 44:6-8
"I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other… Declare what is to be, present it— let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me." Isaiah 45:5-6, 21
"Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will to all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do." Isaiah 46:9-11
Hence, the Messiah is not a mighty god like the heathen kings, but is THE Mighty God in the same sense that Yahweh is since he is Yahweh God incarnate. A careful examination of the entire context of Isaiah, as well as the overall context of the Scriptures, proves this beyond any reasonable doubt.
Zaatari then says:
No Jew ever believed that the Messiah would be God, and no where in the context of Isaiah chapter 9 is such a doctrine taught.
Talk about begging the question and of committing a hasty generalization! No Jew ever believed that the Messiah is God? Really? What about the Jewish followers of Jesus such as John and Paul, both of whom expressly taught that Jesus is God Almighty? What about the thousands of Messianic Jews, Hebrew Christians etc. who do believe in the Trinity and in the perfect Deity of the Lord Jesus?
And since Zaatari is appealing to the Jews to prove his position will he accept the fact that rabbinic or orthodox Judaism believes that the Messiah is an eternal King who ushers in the last age? If so then Muhammad must have been a false prophet for affirming that Jesus is the Messiah while denying the significance this has on his Person and work.
Johann.
Further attempts have been made by Muslim propagandists to deny that Isaiah 9:6 identifies the Messiah as the Mighty God.
One such Muslim neophyte is Sam Zaatari who, in his desperation, appeals to the eisegesis of Unitarian "Christians" to argue that El Gibbor really means "Mighty Hero"! (*)
For instance, Zaatari’s source appeals to Ezekiel 31:11 and 32:12 to show where the word El Gibbor (as well as its plural) is used in relation to others. Here, Zaatari seems to be mistaken since Ezekiel 31:11 does not use El Gibbor but simply El.
"I will give it into the hand of a mighty one (el) of the nations. He shall surely deal with it as its wickedness deserves. I have cast it out." Ezekiel 31:11
He must have also meant Ezekiel 32:21, not 12 since this latter verse uses the word gibborim, not eley gibborim which is the plural form of El Gibbor.
By appealing to these passages Muslims such as Zaatari think that they have found a way of refuting the doctrine of the Trinity and the OT witness to the absolute Deity of the Lord Jesus.
Yet there are several problems with this desperate approach, not the least of which is just because there may be other so-called mighty gods this doesn’t necessarily mean that Isaiah was placing the Messiah in this same category.
Muslims are assuming that the prophet was simply calling the Messiah a mighty one as opposed to identifying this Davidic King as the human appearance of Yahweh God. This is simply a non-sequitor since it does not follow that the Messiah is not Yahweh simply because there are others who are called mighty gods. After all, would we assume that Yahweh is also in this same category of mighty gods seeing that he, too, is called the Mighty God? Of course not.
Second, these so-called mighty gods are the gentile leaders and kings of the nations, as the surrounding context shows:
"In the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: ‘Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt, and send them down, her and the daughters of majestic nations, to the world below, to those who have gone down to THE PIT: Whom do you surpass in beauty? Go down and be laid to rest with the uncircumcised.’ They shall fall amid those who are slain by the sword. Egypt is delivered to the sword; drag her away, and all her multitudes. The mighty chiefs (eley gibborim) shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: ‘They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’ Assyria is there, and all her company, its graves all around it, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, whose graves are set in the uttermost parts of THE PIT; and her company is all around her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who spread terror in the land of the living. Elam is there, and all her multitude around her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who went down uncircumcised into the world below, who spread their terror in the land of the living; and they bear their shame with those who go down to THE PIT. They have made her a bed among the slain with all her multitude, her graves all around it, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; for terror of them was spread in the land of the living, and they bear their shame with those who go down to THE PIT; they are placed among the slain. Meshech-Tubal is there, and all her multitude, her graves all around it, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; for they spread their terror in the land of the living. And they do not lie with THE MIGHTY (giborim), THE FALLEN FROM AMONG THE UNCIRCUMCISED, who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war, whose swords were laid under their heads, and whose iniquities are upon their bones; for the terror of the MIGHTY MEN (giborim) was in the land of the living. But as for you, you shall be broken and lie among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword. Edom is there, her kings and all her princes, who for all their might are laid with those who are killed by the sword; they lie with the uncircumcised, with those who go down to THE PIT. The princes of the north are there, all of them, and all the Sidonians, who have gone down in shame with the slain, for all the terror that they caused by their might; they lie uncircumcised with those who are slain by the sword, and bear their shame with those who go down to THE PIT. When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD. For I spread terror in the land of the living; and he shall be laid to rest among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword, Pharaoh and all his multitude, declares the Lord GOD.’" Ezekiel 32:17-32
From the preceding context we can see that this refers to the fall of Pharaoh to the grave where the dead heathen kings are.
With this in mind the one point that the readers need to remember is that the inspired Scriptures speak out against viewing mere human rulers as gods of any kind. Note, for instance, what Ezekiel says concerning the king of Tyre:
"The word of the LORD came to me: ‘Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because your heart is proud, and you have said, ‘I am a god (el), I sit in the seat of the gods (elohim), in the heart of the seas,’ yet you are but A MAN, and NO god (el), though you make your heart like the heart of a god- you are indeed wiser than Daniel; no secret is hidden from you; by your wisdom and your understanding you have made wealth for yourself, and have gathered gold and silver into your treasuries; by your great wisdom in your trade you have increased your wealth, and your heart has become proud in your wealth- therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you make your heart like the heart of a god (elohim), therefore, behold, I will bring foreigners upon you, the most ruthless of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom and defile your splendor. They shall thrust you down into THE PIT, and you shall die the death of the slain in the heart of the seas. Will you still say, ‘I am a god (elohim),’ in the presence of those who kill you, though you are but A MAN, and NO god (el), in the hands of those who slay you? You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of foreigners; for I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD."’" Ezekiel 28:1-10
Yahweh rebukes a gentile king for thinking that he was a god when in fact he was nothing more than a mere man.
The prophet Isaiah himself rebukes gentile kings such as the king of Babylon for believing that they were gods:
"When the LORD has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: ‘How the oppressor has ceased, the insolent fury ceased! The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, the scepter of rulers, that struck the peoples in wrath with unceasing blows, that ruled the nations in anger with unrelenting persecution. The whole earth is at rest and quiet; they break forth into singing. The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, "Since you were laid low, no woodcutter comes up against us." Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were LEADERS OF THE EARTH; it raises from their thrones all who were KINGS OF THE NATIONS. All of them will answer and say to you: "You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!" Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are laid as a bed beneath you, and worms are your covers. How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to SHEOL, to the far reaches of the pit. Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you: "Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert And overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?" All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb;’" Isaiah 14:3-18
God destroys the Babylonian ruler for thinking that he could be like God, and even brings him down to the pit to be where the other heathen kings dwell. Babylon is further rebuked elsewhere in Isaiah for claiming the very prerogatives of Yahweh:
"… Now therefore hear this, you lover of pleasures, who sit securely, Who say in your heart, ‘I am, and there is no one besides me; I shall not sit as a widow or know the loss of children’: These two things shall come to you in a moment, in one day; the loss of children and widowhood shall come upon you in full measure, in spite of your many sorceries and the great power of your enchantments. You felt secure in your wickedness, you said, ‘No one sees me’; Your wisdom and your knowledge led you astray, and you said in your heart, ‘I am, and there is no one besides me.’" Isaiah 47:8-10
Assyria was another nation which was chastised for thinking that it too was a god:
"And he will stretch out his hand against the north and destroy Assyria, and he will make Nineveh a desolation, a dry waste like the desert. Herds shall lie down in her midst, all kinds of beasts; even the owl and the hedgehog shall lodge in her capitals; a voice shall hoot in the window; devastation will be on the threshold; for her cedar work will be laid bare. This is the exultant city that lived securely, that said in her heart, ‘I am, and there is no one else.’ What a desolation she has become, a lair for wild beasts! Everyone who passes by her hisses and shakes his fist." Zephaniah 2:13-15
And:
"Then the Rabshakeh stood and called out in a loud voice in the language of Judah: ‘Hear the words of the great king, the king of Assyria! Thus says the king: "Do not let Hezekiah deceive you, for he will not be able to deliver you. Do not let Hezekiah make you trust in the LORD by saying, ‘The LORD will surely deliver us. This city will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria.’ Do not listen to Hezekiah. For thus says the king of Assyria: Make your peace with me and come out to me. Then each one of you will eat of his own vine, and each one of his own fig tree, and each one of you will drink the water of his own cistern, until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of grain and wine, a land of bread and vineyards. Beware lest Hezekiah mislead you by saying, ‘The LORD will deliver us.’ Has any of the gods of the nations DELIVERED his land OUT OF THE HAND of the king of Assyria? Where are the gods of Hamath and Arpad? Where are the gods of Sepharvaim? Have they delivered Samaria OUT OF MY HANDS? Who among all the gods of these lands have DELIVERED their lands OUT OF MY HAND, that the LORD should DELIVER Jerusalem OUT OF MY HAND?"’" Isaiah 36:13-20
Again:
"The Rabshakeh returned, and found the king of Assyria fighting against Libnah, for he had heard that the king had left Lachish. Now the king heard concerning Tirhakah king of Cush, ‘He has set out to fight against you.’ And when he heard it, he sent messengers to Hezekiah, saying, ‘Thus shall you speak to Hezekiah king of Judah: "Do not let your God in whom you trust deceive you by promising that Jerusalem will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria. Behold, you have heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all lands, devoting them to destruction. And shall you be delivered? Have the gods of the nations delivered them, the nations that my fathers destroyed, Gozan, Haran, Rezeph, and the people of Eden who were in Telassar? Where is the king of Hamath, the king of Arpad, the king of the city of Sepharvaim, the king of Hena, or the king of Ivvah?"’" Isaiah 37:8-13
Now notice God’s response to Hezekiah’s prayer concerning the taunts of the Assyrian army:
"Hezekiah received the letter from the hand of the messengers, and read it; and Hezekiah went up to the house of the LORD, and spread it before the LORD. And Hezekiah prayed to the LORD: ‘O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, who is enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, YOU ALONE, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth. Incline your ear, O LORD, and hear; open your eyes, O LORD, and see; and hear all the words of Sennacherib, which he has sent to mock the living God. Truly, O LORD, the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations and their lands, and have cast their gods into the fire. For they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone. Therefore they were destroyed. So now, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that YOU ALONE are the LORD’… Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not come into this city or shoot an arrow there or come before it with a shield or cast up a siege mound against it. By the way that he came, by the same he shall return, and he shall not come into this city, declares the LORD. For I will defend this city to save it, for my own sake and for the sake of my servant David. And the angel of the LORD went out and struck down a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies. Then Sennacherib king of Assyria departed and returned home and lived at Nineveh. And as he was worshiping in the house of Nisroch his god, Adrammelech and Sharezer, his sons, struck him down with the sword. And after they escaped into the land of Ararat, Esarhaddon his son reigned in his place." Isaiah 37:14-20, 33-38
Hezekiah beseeches Yahweh to save his people from the Assyrians in order to show that he alone is God. This indicates that, as far as the biblical writers are concerned, there are no other gods which exist alongside Yahweh.
In light of the foregoing it seems evident that Ezekiel 32:21 and 31:11 are not saying that these heathen rulers were actually gods, albeit in a lesser sense than Yahweh. Nor are the terms being used metaphorically to denote rulers who were mighty, as Zaatari’s source erroneously assumes. From the overall context of the inspired Scriptures we can safely conclude that these gentile kings are ironically and sarcastically called gods, e.g. they are rulers who were wrongly considered gods by the peoples and yet died a humiliating and shameful death, dying like any other mere mortal.
This is completely unlike the context of Isaiah 9 where an inspired prophet gives the child the very titles of God himself as an indication of his character and rule.
Moreover, Zaatari’s anti-Trinitarian source conveniently turns to the book of Ezekiel while ignoring the fact that Isaiah uses the exact phrase El Gibbor in 10:21 in reference to the one true God, Yahweh. Thus, if this phrase means "Mighty Hero" then Isaiah is identifying both Yahweh and the Messiah as this one Mighty Hero who defends and fights for God’s people. After all, the Messiah is El Gibbor in the same sense that Yahweh is since he is given all of the very titles which Isaiah applies in other places to God, even though the prophet emphatically stresses the point that there is only one true God (El, Elohim):
"‘You are my witnesses,’ declares the LORD, ‘and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.’" Isaiah 43:10-11
"This is what the LORD says— Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come— yes, let him foretell what will come. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." Isaiah 44:6-8
"I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other… Declare what is to be, present it— let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me." Isaiah 45:5-6, 21
"Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will to all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do." Isaiah 46:9-11
Hence, the Messiah is not a mighty god like the heathen kings, but is THE Mighty God in the same sense that Yahweh is since he is Yahweh God incarnate. A careful examination of the entire context of Isaiah, as well as the overall context of the Scriptures, proves this beyond any reasonable doubt.
Zaatari then says:
No Jew ever believed that the Messiah would be God, and no where in the context of Isaiah chapter 9 is such a doctrine taught.
Talk about begging the question and of committing a hasty generalization! No Jew ever believed that the Messiah is God? Really? What about the Jewish followers of Jesus such as John and Paul, both of whom expressly taught that Jesus is God Almighty? What about the thousands of Messianic Jews, Hebrew Christians etc. who do believe in the Trinity and in the perfect Deity of the Lord Jesus?
And since Zaatari is appealing to the Jews to prove his position will he accept the fact that rabbinic or orthodox Judaism believes that the Messiah is an eternal King who ushers in the last age? If so then Muhammad must have been a false prophet for affirming that Jesus is the Messiah while denying the significance this has on his Person and work.
Jesus Christ The Mighty God
www.answering-islam.org
Johann.
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Wrangler
Well-known member
Untrue. 1st, Just because someone is a monotheist does not make them wrong.
2nd, there are plenty of Scripture experts who point out how Isaiah 9:6 is not a Messianic prophecy. And I’m sure you could find this IF you were open to the truth.
Isaiah 9:6 is a Mistranslation | The Doctrine of the Trinity Examined
www.trinityexamined.com
The New Testament does not teach that Isaiah 9:6 is a fulfillment of any prophecy. None of the titles mentioned in this verse, (“wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting father, prince of peace”) are applied to Jesus in the Bible.
Two ancient sources provide an interpretation of Isaiah 9:6 that is consistent with Hebrew grammar rules. The child was already born, had a government on his shoulders, and he was called one, singular non-divine name.
The more one researched, the more the Scriptural basis for trinitarianism is untenable. Say it with me; The New Testament does not teach that Isaiah 9:6 is a fulfillment of any prophecy.
Wrangler
Well-known member
So, you c
Claiming it was already answered and debunked does not make it so AND is not a yes or no answer to the question.
So, you cannot admit that 1,000 of verses in Scripture use a singular pronoun to refer to God.
Claiming it was already answered and debunked does not make it so AND is not a yes or no answer to the question.
Johann
Well-known member
Always five steps ahead of you-already answered Scripturally and verifiable sources-you have lost this debate.Untrue. 1st, Just because someone is a monotheist does not make them wrong.
2nd, there are plenty of Scripture experts who point out how Isaiah 9:6 is not a Messianic prophecy. And I’m sure you could find this IF you were open to the truth.
Isaiah 9:6 is a Mistranslation | The Doctrine of the Trinity Examined
The New Testament does not teach that Isaiah 9:6 is a fulfillment of any prophecy. None of the titles mentioned in this verse, (“wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting father, prince of peace”) are applied to Jesus in the Bible.Two ancient sources provide an interpretation of Isaiah 9:6 that is consistent with Hebrew grammar rules. The child was already born, had a government on his shoulders, and he was called one, singular non-divine name.
The more one researched, the more the Scriptural basis for trinitarianism is untenable. Say it with me; The New Testament does not teach that Isaiah 9:6 is a fulfillment of any prophecy.
Johann.
Attention to the posters in this thread. Please keep your post on track With the thread. Do not comment negatively about other posters That you may not agree with.
Wrangler
Well-known member
So you say but not actually the case. Do you agree that 3 is not 1?
Just because Islam is a spiritual sworn enemy of Christianity why not immerse yourself in their countless heresies? The enemy of your enemy is your friend no matter what the cost, even if it's your soul. What wonderful principles Unitarianism adheres to.
Wrangler
Well-known member
When you resort to slander, that is how you know you’ve lost the debate.
Johann
Well-known member
You are in a state of error-lost ground-making an appeal to Imams to solidify your position.
Your sources are questionable-
Further attempts have been made by Muslim propagandists to deny that Isaiah 9:6 identifies the Messiah as the Mighty God. One such Muslim neophyte is Sam Zaatari who, in his desperation, appeals to the eisegesis of Unitarian "Christians" to argue that El Gibbor really means "Mighty Hero"! (*)
For instance, Zaatari’s source appeals to Ezekiel 31:11 and 32:12 to show where the word El Gibbor (as well as its plural) is used in relation to others. Here, Zaatari seems to be mistaken since Ezekiel 31:11 does not use El Gibbor but simply El.
"I will give it into the hand of a mighty one (el) of the nations. He shall surely deal with it as its wickedness deserves. I have cast it out." Ezekiel 31:11
He must have also meant Ezekiel 32:21, not 12 since this latter verse uses the word gibborim, not eley gibborim which is the plural form of El Gibbor.
By appealing to these passages Muslims such as Zaatari think that they have found a way of refuting the doctrine of the Trinity and the OT witness to the absolute Deity of the Lord Jesus.
Yet there are several problems with this desperate approach, not the least of which is just because there may be other so-called mighty gods this doesn’t necessarily mean that Isaiah was placing the Messiah in this same category.
Muslims are assuming that the prophet was simply calling the Messiah a mighty one as opposed to identifying this Davidic King as the human appearance of Yahweh God.
This is simply a non-sequitor since it does not follow that the Messiah is not Yahweh simply because there are others who are called mighty gods. After all, would we assume that Yahweh is also in this same category of mighty gods seeing that he, too, is called the Mighty God? Of course not.
Hence, the Messiah is not a mighty god like the heathen kings, but is THE Mighty God in the same sense that Yahweh is since he is Yahweh God incarnate. A careful examination of the entire context of Isaiah, as well as the overall context of the Scriptures, proves this beyond any reasonable doubt.
Zaatari then says:
No Jew ever believed that the Messiah would be God, and no where in the context of Isaiah chapter 9 is such a doctrine taught.
Talk about begging the question and of committing a hasty generalization! No Jew ever believed that the Messiah is God? Really? What about the Jewish followers of Jesus such as John and Paul, both of whom expressly taught that Jesus is God Almighty? What about the thousands of Messianic Jews, Hebrew Christians etc. who do believe in the Trinity and in the perfect Deity of the Lord Jesus?
And since Zaatari is appealing to the Jews to prove his position will he accept the fact that rabbinic or orthodox Judaism believes that the Messiah is an eternal King who ushers in the last age?
If so then Muhammad must have been a false prophet for affirming that Jesus is the Messiah while denying the significance this has on his Person and work. For more on this subject we recommend the following articles:
I suggest you read it thoughtfully before any further attempt to engage me.
Shalom
Johann.
An aside-reread your sources-you are threading on thin ice in a desperate attempt to deny the Deity of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Wrangler
Well-known member
I JUST presented a Christian authority. It not who says the truth. All you got is slander.
Let me ask a question. Jesus did not teach the trinity. Why do you?
Facts are not slander. Islam is our sworn spiritual enemy. They were the engine behind the slave trade of northern Africa! I can't believe that you are so willing to defend Islam when they are our sworn spiritual enemy. Facts cannot be made to disappear with a magic "slander" word.
civic
Well-known member
Yes in Matthew 28:19-20.
"If two nouns of the same case are connected by a "kai" (and) and the article (the) is used with both nouns, they refer to different persons or things. If only the first noun has the article, the second noun refers to the same person or thing referred to in the first." {Curtis Vaughn, and Virtus Gideon, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament" (Nashville: Broadman Press, 1979), p. 83.}"
Implicit truth must be congruent with accurate interpretation of biblical texts. Consider Matthew 28:19 as an example. After Jesus resurrected from the dead, He instructed the disciples, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” (NASB). The word name is singular in the Greek, thereby indicating God’s oneness. Notice, however, the definite articles in front of each person: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Greek scholar Daniel B. Wallace tells us that the definite article is often used to stress the identity of an individual.3 Theologian Robert L. Reymond thus observes:
Jesus does not say, (1) “into the names [plural] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” or what is its virtual equivalent, (2) “into the name of the Father, and into the name of the Son, and into the name of the Holy Spirit,” as if we had to deal with three separate Beings. Nor does He say, (3) “into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,” (omitting the three recurring articles), as if “the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost” might be taken as merely three designations of a single person. What He does say is this: (4) “in the name [singular] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” first asserting the unity of the three by combining them all within the bounds of the single Name, and then throwing into emphasis the distinctness of each by introducing them in turn with the repeated article.rhodes
hope this helps !!!
Wrangler
Well-known member
Not the subject of this thread.
Your side lost the point. Just concede and move on. If the trinity were easy, a thread would not be needed. Invalid inherently, contradictory concepts need endless ex explanation like the trinity
Wrangler
Well-known member
These verses don’t teach the trinity; di t even say this is the nature of God or believing it is a condition of salvation. Not to mention not mentioning that they are coequal, co-substantial or co-eternal.
To reach for something so desperate shows hoe weak your argument is.
