civic
Well-known member
I tagged him so he will read this I guarentee it.
The Trinity made easy
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
Johann
Well-known member
Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born; to us a Son is given; and the government is on His shoulder; and His name is called Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty El, The Prince of Peace, The one who Fathered Everlasting life.
THE DEITY OF CHRIST FROM THE OT (Micah 5:2)
The two lines from Micah 5:2, "His goings forth are from long ago" and "From the days of eternity," are parallel. The VERB, "going forth" (BDB 422, KB 425, Qal IMPERATIVE is very common. It was used in Micah eight times:
of the Lord's coming in Mic. 1:3
of God's law going forth in Mic. 4:2
of repentant Israel being restored in Mic. 7:9 (i.e., a new exodus, Mic. 7:15). It can refer to the Messiah's origin (Genenius, NRSV, NJB) or actions (cf. Mic. 4:4,5a).
These two poetic lines could refer to
the pre-existence of the Messiah (cf. Pro. 8:22-31; John 1:1,14-15,30; 8:56-59; 16:28; 17:5,24; 2 Cor. 8:9; Phil. 2:6-7; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3; 10:5-9)
a way of referring to famous descendants of the past (i.e., Noah, Abraham, or more probably, David).
This whole verse alludes to a Davidic king, of David's line, from David's hometown. David was viewed as the ideal king.
The term "eternity" (BDB 761) is 'olam.
The NIDOTTE, vol. 3, p. 347, which discusses 'olam, makes this comment,
"While it is tempting to see here a reference to the eternal preexistence of the Messiah, no such an idea is found in biblical or post-biblical Jewish literature before the 'Similitudes of Enoch' (first century B.C. ‒ first century A.D.; see I Enoch 48:2-6)."
I think, although there are hints in the OT of an incarnation, the Jewish leaders of Jesus' day were surprised at His claims of equality with God (e.g., Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; 8:58 and Paul, 2 Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:15; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13). A partial list of OT texts that have been used to assert the full deity of Jesus follows:
Ps. 2:7, quoted in Heb. 1:5 (see esp. 1:2-3)
Ps. 45:6-7 quoted in Heb. 1:8-9
Ps. 110:1 quoted in Heb. 1:13
Isa. 9:6; Jer. 23:5-6; Micah 5:2 alluded to in Luke 1:32
Dan. 7:13 quoted in Matt. 26:64; Mark14:62
Zech. 13:7 quoted in Matt. 26:31; Mark 14:27
Mal. 3:1 quoted in Mark 1:1-3; Luke 2:26-27
SPECIAL TOPIC: THE TRINITY, II
SPECIAL TOPIC: CHRIST JESUS AS LORD
SPECIAL TOPIC: THE DEITY OF CHRIST FROM THE OT
Deity of Christ -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).
www.freebiblecommentary.org
Sure why not I don't see any problem with him. Like you said in your post if someone wants to see the link then you can show it to them. Sounds good to me.Some more material-from a Messianic Jewish perspective-a long read. Michael Brown.
Examination of some arguments raised by "Supplement to Contra Brown" 2
I am continuing the response to some of the point that Yisroel Blumenthal has raised in his work Supplement to Contra Brown and I hope to ad...answering-judaism.blogspot.com
@civic I have decided not to reveal my links and sources to all and sundry-since it goes unnoticed-only to those who ask, would that be OK?
Thanks brother.
Johann.
Wrangler
Well-known member
No. You are not willing to enter into a debate with non-trinitarians. The proof is you completely disregard evidence that goes against your doctrine.
The pattern is to sweep aside all verses I present and only put up for discussion verses you prefer. What do you suppose it means for the trinity when Jesus said YHWH (our father) is the only true God?
Wrangler
Well-known member
The substance of Jesus Christ is a distraction from the point. The intent was to show the relationship between Jesus and the God who he is OF.
Try not to make this about me.
This thread is about the trinity made easy. Trinitarians show in many posts how their inherently contradictory doctrine is not easy. That's pretty funny.
One Person of the Trinity can affirm the other Person of the Trinity is God. (John 17:3)
This is no problem for the Trinitarian.
However, for those who deny the Lord Jesus is God this refutes their false belief.
"Only" can encompass more than one Person of the Trinity. In fact, the same Greek word for "only" is used in Jude 4.
Jesus was saying the Father is true God in contradistinction with all false gods. This is how "the true God" is always used in the Bible.
2 Chronicles 15:3 (cf. v. 8)
Jeremiah 10:10
John 17:3
1 Thessalonians 1:9
1 John 5:20-21
1. BDAG (3rd Edition): of God in contrast to other deities, who are not real J 17:3 (alēthinos, page 43).
2. New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT): in Jn. 17:3, monos is linked with alēthinos, true, in contrast to the deceptive appearance (pseudos) of all alleged gods and revealers (2:724, One, K.H. Bartels).
3. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: the one, true God, in contrast with the polytheism of the Gentiles (ginōskō, page 117).
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Wrangler
Well-known member
That's your take on a non-god (Jesus) stating YHWH (our father) is the only true God? Good grief!
You even admitted the "only Master" for all who are Christians refers to Jesus in Jude 4.
And yet so is the Father - in equality! (Acts 4:24).
Who is the only Master (despotēs) of every Christian?
a. If a Unitarian affirms the Father is the only despotēs of every Christian, then that would contradict Jude 4.
b. If a Unitarian affirms the Lord Jesus is the only despotēs of every Christian, then that would contradict Acts 4:24.
c. If a Unitarian affirms both the Father and the Lord Jesus are the only despotēs of every Christian, then say good-bye to Unitarianism.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
The substance of Jesus Christ doesn't distract at all. You are attempting to "boil down" the argument to less than adequate representation. Your view of Joe Biden is your perspective that need not be shared with anyone else. The value of Jesus Christ is important in this discussion. I've asked to commit to positions throughout our discussion and you seem unwilling. You just keep repeating the same claims.
You're presenting an argument dependent upon perspective. That requires I make it about your perspective. I've given you a rational reason Jesus is referenced as a servant. You're reject that argument to insert your perspective.
It was a summary wherein we are debating the details. It worked. That is what discussions are about.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I get the "feeling" he/she questions the veracity of the NT.
Johann
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
Correct brother-we need discernment more than ever now-to discern between error and truth.
Shalom
Johann.
Johann
Well-known member
You need to put on your thinking cap-no offense
The rebuttal-
Response to Tovia Singer on "Did the Authors of the New Testament Believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity?"
The Trinity is seen by Rabbinic Jews, Some Messianic communities, Cult groups and Muslims as a great anathemea when they look at it. Some ha...
answering-judaism.blogspot.com
Guess what-Know who Singer-"the singing tweet is?"
Good luck with this.
J.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Rationalization.
Since the trinity is not in Scripture, there is no way any word in Scripture can encompass it.
Dodge.
The word "only" that so many who deny the Lord Jesus is God focus on in John 17:3 actually refutes their false doctrine (cf. Jude 4).
There are other examples. Here's another one:
God "alone" knows the hearts of all (1 Kings 8:39).
Jesus knows the hearts of all (Acts 1:24; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Revelation 2:23).
Therefore, Jesus is God.
Johann
Well-known member
Even without 1 John 5:7, A case for the Trinity can still be made. Furthermore Psalm 95 8-11 says the following (Today-voice is in verse 7)You need to put on your thinking cap-no offense
This is how you come across in your reasoning
The rebuttal-
Response to Tovia Singer on "Did the Authors of the New Testament Believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity?"
The Trinity is seen by Rabbinic Jews, Some Messianic communities, Cult groups and Muslims as a great anathemea when they look at it. Some ha...
Guess what-Know who Singer-"the singing tweet is?"
Good luck with this.
J.
Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,[a]
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 When your fathers tested Me;
They tried Me, though they saw My work.
10 For forty years I was grieved with that generation,
And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts,
And they do not know My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”
The author of Hebrews takes this text from Psalms itself and attributes it to the Holy Spirit saying it. It is important to note in the book of Acts, the Holy Spirit himself says to set Paul and Barnabas apart for HIM for the work HE has called them (Acts 13:2) as well as two other passages which are addressed in this article: http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/challenge-from-facebook-unitarian.html
Also, In Acts 28, The Holy Spirit is said to be the one who spoke through Isaiah rather than the Father.
25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
26 “‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’
Isaiah makes it plain in Chapter 6
8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”
And of course Isaiah 6 9-10 is the quotation in Acts 28
9 He said, “Go and tell this people:
“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
Also, I would like my Unitarian opponent to explain the following text from Ezekiel 11
11 Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me to the gate of the house of the Lord that faces east. There at the entrance of the gate were twenty-five men, and I saw among them Jaazaniah son of Azzur and Pelatiah son of Benaiah, leaders of the people. 2 The Lord said to me, “Son of man, these are the men who are plotting evil and giving wicked advice in this city. 3 They say, ‘Haven’t our houses been recently rebuilt? This city is a pot, and we are the meat in it.’ 4 Therefore prophesy against them; prophesy, son of man.”
5 Then the Spirit of the Lord came on me, and he told me to say: “This is what the Lord says: That is what you are saying, you leaders in Israel, but I know what is going through your mind. 6 You have killed many people in this city and filled its streets with the dead.
Interesting texts, The Spirit comes to Ezekiel and tells him to pass on a message from the LORD? So here the Spirit even functions as a divine person and speaks on the LORD's behalf. I am not saying that speaking on God's behalf makes you God, I am saying we have the Holy Spirit is able to speak and think rather than be a mere presence or power. Sounds like a Trinity in this text to me.
John 17:3
This text needn't have too much of an explanation, it is often misused by many people to deny the Deity of Christ or say he is LESS than God. What they fail to mention is John 17:5, two verses later.
John 17:1-5
17 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Could a mere Son of God claim this, Could someone who is not the Eternal God claim this? Absolutely NOT. Remember what YHWH says in the OT in Isaiah:
Isaiah 42: 8
“I am the Lord; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another
or my praise to idols.
If YHWH will NOT give his glory, his preexistent glory, to another, Yet Jesus claims to share that same glory with the Father, Why is Jesus doing this if he is not YHWH.
If you ask me, I think Merrell is the idolator here, not me. If he sees Jesus as a separate being and not YHWH the Son,- How can he reconcile the passages I cited when he condemns the Trinity as "pure paganism"? John 17:3 is addressed in my response to Tovia Singer: http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/response-to-tovia-singer-on-did-authors.html
You need your thinking cap brother @Wrangler
J.
Johann
Well-known member
let me shock you-
- YouTube
Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
youtu.be
Sam Shamoun vs. Farhan Qureshi: "Is the Trinity in the Old Testament?"
Did Christians invent the doctrine of the Trinity? Or can this doctrine be found in Scriptures that predate the Christian era? In this debate, Sam Shamoun an...
youtu.be
Ever heard of Benjamin Sommer?
What to do with Scriptural facts presented to you? Are you dogmatic in your worldview?
J.
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Wrangler
Well-known member
Is that the verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever? The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!
Wrangler
Well-known member
Johann, such a devote trinitarian you are, nothing you do or say could shock me.
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
One singular name encompasses all three Persons = The Trinity.
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): Mt. 28:19 combines the name of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost. Only through this link with the name of Son and Holy Ghost does the name of the Father acquire its fulness. The common name also expresses the unity of being. (5:274, onoma, H. Bietenhard)
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