The Trinity made easy

Wrangler said:
What is silly about pointing out to trinitarians that the trininty is not in Scripture - neither the word nor the concept?
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As expected-resorting to circular reasoning-no consistency-deal with the Scripture references presented-and don't allow your mind to wander.
Here you can run around, but not if it was a debate in real time, pros to pros-Panav to panav.
Johann.
 
Wrangler said:
True but ‘God is one’ IS.
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So-let's put the "Trinity" aside-and concentrate on the Deity of Christ Jesus-for the moment
Together-let's go through these verses without fighting.

THE TRINITY

Notice the activity of all three Persons of the Trinity in unified contexts. The term "trinity," first coined by Tertullian, is not a biblical word, but the concept is pervasive.

In the NT
the Gospels
Matt. 3:16-17; 28:19 (and parallels)
John 14:26
Acts — Acts 2:32-33, 38-39
Paul
Rom. 1:4-5; 5:1,5; 8:1-4,8-10
1 Cor. 2:8-10; 12:4-6
2 Cor. 1:21-22; 13:14
Gal. 4:4-6
Eph. 1:3-14,17; 2:18; 3:14-17; 4:4-6
1 Thess. 1:2-5
2 Thess. 2:13
Titus 3:4-6
Peter — 1 Pet. 1:2
Jude — vv. 20-21

A plurality in God is hinted at in the OT.
Use of PLURALS for God
Name Elohim is PLURAL (see SPECIAL TOPIC: NAMES FOR DEITY, C.), but when used of God always has a SINGULAR VERB
"Us" in Genesis 1:26-27 (see full notes online); 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8
"One" in the Shema (BDB 1033) of Deut. 6:4 can be PLURAL (as it is in Gen. 2:24; Ezek. 37:17; SPECIAL TOPIC: SHEMA)
I can prove this with verifiable sources @Wrangler

"The Angel of the Lord" (see SPECIAL TOPIC: THE ANGEL OF THE LORD) was a visible representative of Deity
Genesis 16:7-13; 22:11-15; 31:11,13; 48:15-16
Exodus 3:2,4; 13:21; 14:19
Judges 2:1; 6:22-23; 13:3-22
Zechariah 3:1-2
God and His Spirit are separate, Gen. 1:1-2; Ps. 104:30; Isa. 63:9-11; Ezek. 37:13-14
God (YHWH) and Messiah (Adon) are separate, Ps. 45:6-7; 110:1; Zech. 2:8-11; 10:9-12
The Messiah and the Spirit are separate, Zech. 12:10
All three are mentioned in one context in Isa. 48:16; 61:1

The Deity of Jesus (see (see SPECIAL TOPIC: THE DEITY OF CHRIST FROM THE OT, and the NT verses: John 1:1-2; 5:18; 8:58; 10:30; 14:9; 17:11; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1) and the personality of the Spirit (see SPECIAL TOPIC: PERSONHOOD OF THE SPIRIT) caused problems for the strict, monotheistic (see SPECIAL TOPIC: MONOTHEISM) early believers.

Tertullian — subordinated the Son to the Father

Origen — subordinated the divine essence of the Son and the Spirit

Arius — denied Deity to the Son and Spirit

Monarchianism — believed in a successive chronological manifestation of the one God as Father, then Son, and then Spirit

The Trinity is a historically developed formulation informed by the biblical material.
the full Deity of Jesus, equal to the Father, was affirmed in A.D. 325 by the Council of Nicea (cf. John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13)
the full personality and Deity of the Spirit equal to the Father and Son was affirmed in A.D. 381 by the Council of Constantinople
the doctrine of the Trinity is fully expressed in Augustine's work De Trinitate.

There is truly mystery here. But the NT affirms one eternal divine essence (monotheism) with three eternal personal manifestations (Father, Son, and Spirit).
For more information on the developed doctrinal understanding of the Trinity or Tri-Unity of God, see

Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology, 2nd ed., chapter 16, "God's Three-in-Oneness: The Trinity," pp. 340-367.
Hard Sayings of the Bible, John 1:1; "One God or Three?", pp. 490-492

You want to engage?
J.
 
Wrangler said:
Rationalization.

Since the trinity is not in Scripture, there is no way any word in Scripture can encompass it.
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You sit with a problem=

1Co 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food,
1Co 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

Guess Christ did exist even in the OT-yes?

1Co 10:5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did.
1Co 10:7 Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.”
1Co 10:8 We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day.
1Co 10:9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents,

Do you make the connection? Is this passage not teaching you of the preexistent Messiah?

1Co 10:10 nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer.

Shalom Achi
Johann.
 
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Johann said:
You sit with a problem
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No. I sit with no problem. Once you recognize the Scripture as monotheist text, it simplifies dramatically.

Imagine you are drowning. Further imagine a captain ordering his ship to save you. When it arrives, an Ensign pulls you from the water to the safety of the ship. Who saved you?
A. The Captain
B. The Ensign.
C. Both.
 
Johann said:
1Co 10:9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents,
Click to expand...

Wait. Are you claiming this verse means Christ was around at the time ‘some of
them did and were destroyed by serpents?’

Exegesis. Let us not fall down and break our crown as Jack and Jill did.

Language usage.
 
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praise_yeshua said:
Can you define your canon of Scripture. If you're going to reference the Scriptures, we should all understand what you hold to be true.
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I don’t understand your question. By ‘canon of Scripture’ are you referring to:
A. Preferred translation?
B. Doctrines I hold?
 
Johann said:
So-let's put the "Trinity" aside-and concentrate on the Deity of Christ Jesus
Click to expand...
I wonder why you would want to put aside the trinity and focus on the man-is-god thesis?


Johann said:
A plurality in God is hinted at in the OT.
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Eh? Hinted at?! No way man! Trinitarians keep saying this but it cannot withstand scrutiny.

In opposition to explicit Scripture? Can you admit that the unitarian nature of God - expressed through 1,000’s of singular pronouns and many statements by God - is not hinted at but explicitly stated in Scripture?
 
Wrangler said:
Which is in reference to a 6th century BC prince. https://bloggingtheology.net/2017/03/05/isaiah-96-the-child-is-not-god/
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You go to Kaleef K. Karim to give you his eisegesis? An Imam?

All scholars-rabbinic and modern agree that this is referring to Christ Jesus.
Are you that desperate to debunk the Deity of Jesus Christ-our great God and Savior?

@Wrangler you need to snap out of your ........ ....... and do so with haste. (This is what won't be tolerated, No name calling of any sort. By admin)

Here-your Imam [and you] rebutted-thoroughly.
And just in case a Muslim tries to squirm his/her way out of this and deny that Isaiah 9:6-7 or Isaiah 53 are Messianic texts by appealing to orthodox Jews to prove that they are not, here are a couple of rabbinic quotes for good measure:

The prophet saith to the house of David, A child has been born to us, a son has been given to us; and he has taken the law upon himself to keep it, and his name has been called from of old, Wonderful counselor, Mighty God, He who lives forever, the Anointed One (or Messiah), in whose days peace shall increase upon us. (The Targum of Isaiah, J.F. Stenning, Editor and Translator [Oxford: Clarendon], p. 32; bold emphasis ours)

Another explanation: He said to him: ‘I have yet to raise up the Messiah’ of whom it is written, For a child is born to us (Isa. IX, 5). (Midrash Rabbah Deuteronomy, Rabbi H. Freedman and Maurice Simon, Editors; Rev. Dr. J. Rabbinowitz, Translator [London: Soncino Press], I.20, p. 20)

Behold my servant. Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peopled, and their complexion beyond the sons of men. (Targum Jonathan, 2nd Century A.D.)

The Messiah--what is his name? … The rabbis say, the leprous one; those of the house of Rabbi say, the sick one, as it is said, "Surely he hath borne our sickness." (The Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 98b, 500 A.D.)

He is speaking of King Messiah: "Come hither" draw near to the throne "and dip thy morsel in the vinegar," this refers to the chastisements, as it is said, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities." (Ruth 2:14 commentary from The Midrash Rabbah, 6th Century A.D.)

Source for the last two quotes: 1, 2

Renowned Messianic Jewish Scholar Dr. Michael L. Brown writes:

"The oldest Jewish translation of Isaiah 9:6[5], found in the Septuagint, understands all the names as referring to the king, rendering this verse into the Greek as follows: ‘For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel [Megale he arche]: for I will bring peace on the princes, and health to him.’ The Targum, while explicitly identifying this as a Messianic prophecy, renders the verse in Aramaic with an interesting twist, ‘... and his name is called from before the One who is wonderful in counsel, the mighty God who exists forever, the Messiah, because there will be abundant peace upon us in his days’ (translated literally). The problem with this translation, aside from the fact that it is grammatically strained, is that almost all the names are heaped on God, and only the last two are given to the son - although it is the naming of this royal child that is central to the verse. How odd! Clearly, the names refer to the son, not to the Lord who gave them. In other words, the Targumic rendering would be like saying, ‘And God - the great, glorious, holy, wonderful, eternal, unchangeable Redeemer and King and Lord - calls his name Joe.’ There is no precedent or parallel to this anywhere in the Bible and no logical explanation for this rendering, nor is it even a natural, grammatical rendering of the Hebrew. The characteristics of the royal child are central - highlighted here by his names - not the characteristics of the Lord. As the brilliant Hebrew and Rabbinic scholar Franz Delitzsch noted, even Samuel David Luzzato, one of the greatest Italian rabbis, rightly observed that ‘you do not expect to find attributes of God here, but such as would be characteristic of the child.’ This agrees with the Talmudic and midrashic writings, along with the comments of Abraham Ibn Ezra, all of which state that the names refer to the child." (Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus – Messianic Prophecy Objections [Baker Books, Grand Rapid MI, 2003], Volume Three, pp. 32-33; bold emphasis ours)

Brown writes in fn. 86 that,

"… Cf. the following Rabbinic statements: ‘R. Yose the Galilean said: "The name of the Messiah is Peace, for it is said, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace"’ (Midrash Pereq Shalom, p. 101); ‘The Messiah is called by eight names; Yinnon [see Ps. 72:12], Tzemach [e.g., Jer. 23:5]; Pele’ [Wonderful, Isa. 9:6(5)], Yo’etz [Counselor, Isa. 9:6(5)], Mashiach [Messiah], El [God, Isa. 9:6(5)], Gibbor [Hero, Isa. 9:6(5)], and Avi ‘Ad Shalom [Eternal Father of Peace, Isa. 9:6(5)];’ see Deuteronomy Rabbah 1:20." (Ibid. p. 210)

The great medieval commentator Abraham Ibn Ezra, despite applying the passage to Hezekiah, nonetheless admits that all of these names are titles of the child in question:

"The correct view in my opinion is that all these are names of the child. pele’ – because the Lord did wonders in his days. yo’ets – such was Hezekiah [as it is written], ‘And the king took counsel’ [see 2 Chron. 30:2]; ’el gibbor – because he was strong, and the kingdom of the house of David was prolonged because of him; [abi] ‘ad – the word has the same meaning as ‘dwelling in eternity’ [in Isa. 57:15]; sar shalom – because there was peace in his days." (Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus – Theological Objections [Baker Books, Grand Rapids MI 2000], Volume 2, p. 46; bold emphasis ours)

Jesus Christ The Mighty God

www.answering-islam.org
 
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Johann said:
You go to Kaleef K. Karim to give you his eisegesis? An Imam?

All scholars-rabbinic and modern agree that this is referring to Christ Jesus.
Are you that desperate to debunk the Deity of Jesus Christ-our great God and Savior?

@Wrangler you need to snap out of your drunken stupor and do so with haste.

Here-your Imam [and you] rebutted-thoroughly.
And just in case a Muslim tries to squirm his/her way out of this and deny that Isaiah 9:6-7 or Isaiah 53 are Messianic texts by appealing to orthodox Jews to prove that they are not, here are a couple of rabbinic quotes for good measure:

The prophet saith to the house of David, A child has been born to us, a son has been given to us; and he has taken the law upon himself to keep it, and his name has been called from of old, Wonderful counselor, Mighty God, He who lives forever, the Anointed One (or Messiah), in whose days peace shall increase upon us. (The Targum of Isaiah, J.F. Stenning, Editor and Translator [Oxford: Clarendon], p. 32; bold emphasis ours)

Another explanation: He said to him: ‘I have yet to raise up the Messiah’ of whom it is written, For a child is born to us (Isa. IX, 5). (Midrash Rabbah Deuteronomy, Rabbi H. Freedman and Maurice Simon, Editors; Rev. Dr. J. Rabbinowitz, Translator [London: Soncino Press], I.20, p. 20)

Behold my servant. Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peopled, and their complexion beyond the sons of men. (Targum Jonathan, 2nd Century A.D.)

The Messiah--what is his name? … The rabbis say, the leprous one; those of the house of Rabbi say, the sick one, as it is said, "Surely he hath borne our sickness." (The Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 98b, 500 A.D.)

He is speaking of King Messiah: "Come hither" draw near to the throne "and dip thy morsel in the vinegar," this refers to the chastisements, as it is said, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities." (Ruth 2:14 commentary from The Midrash Rabbah, 6th Century A.D.)

Source for the last two quotes: 1, 2

Renowned Messianic Jewish Scholar Dr. Michael L. Brown writes:

"The oldest Jewish translation of Isaiah 9:6[5], found in the Septuagint, understands all the names as referring to the king, rendering this verse into the Greek as follows: ‘For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel [Megale he arche]: for I will bring peace on the princes, and health to him.’ The Targum, while explicitly identifying this as a Messianic prophecy, renders the verse in Aramaic with an interesting twist, ‘... and his name is called from before the One who is wonderful in counsel, the mighty God who exists forever, the Messiah, because there will be abundant peace upon us in his days’ (translated literally). The problem with this translation, aside from the fact that it is grammatically strained, is that almost all the names are heaped on God, and only the last two are given to the son - although it is the naming of this royal child that is central to the verse. How odd! Clearly, the names refer to the son, not to the Lord who gave them. In other words, the Targumic rendering would be like saying, ‘And God - the great, glorious, holy, wonderful, eternal, unchangeable Redeemer and King and Lord - calls his name Joe.’ There is no precedent or parallel to this anywhere in the Bible and no logical explanation for this rendering, nor is it even a natural, grammatical rendering of the Hebrew. The characteristics of the royal child are central - highlighted here by his names - not the characteristics of the Lord. As the brilliant Hebrew and Rabbinic scholar Franz Delitzsch noted, even Samuel David Luzzato, one of the greatest Italian rabbis, rightly observed that ‘you do not expect to find attributes of God here, but such as would be characteristic of the child.’ This agrees with the Talmudic and midrashic writings, along with the comments of Abraham Ibn Ezra, all of which state that the names refer to the child." (Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus – Messianic Prophecy Objections [Baker Books, Grand Rapid MI, 2003], Volume Three, pp. 32-33; bold emphasis ours)

Brown writes in fn. 86 that,

"… Cf. the following Rabbinic statements: ‘R. Yose the Galilean said: "The name of the Messiah is Peace, for it is said, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace"’ (Midrash Pereq Shalom, p. 101); ‘The Messiah is called by eight names; Yinnon [see Ps. 72:12], Tzemach [e.g., Jer. 23:5]; Pele’ [Wonderful, Isa. 9:6(5)], Yo’etz [Counselor, Isa. 9:6(5)], Mashiach [Messiah], El [God, Isa. 9:6(5)], Gibbor [Hero, Isa. 9:6(5)], and Avi ‘Ad Shalom [Eternal Father of Peace, Isa. 9:6(5)];’ see Deuteronomy Rabbah 1:20." (Ibid. p. 210)

The great medieval commentator Abraham Ibn Ezra, despite applying the passage to Hezekiah, nonetheless admits that all of these names are titles of the child in question:

"The correct view in my opinion is that all these are names of the child. pele’ – because the Lord did wonders in his days. yo’ets – such was Hezekiah [as it is written], ‘And the king took counsel’ [see 2 Chron. 30:2]; ’el gibbor – because he was strong, and the kingdom of the house of David was prolonged because of him; [abi] ‘ad – the word has the same meaning as ‘dwelling in eternity’ [in Isa. 57:15]; sar shalom – because there was peace in his days." (Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus – Theological Objections [Baker Books, Grand Rapids MI 2000], Volume 2, p. 46; bold emphasis ours)

Jesus Christ The Mighty God

www.answering-islam.org
Click to expand...
I burst out laughing when you called out ....... on his desperate appeal to an Imam. Islam is the sworn spiritual enemy of Christianity and ......... is appealing to our sworn enemies! My goodness! How low they will go. They're willing to sell their souls to anyone in order to appease their Uniate god.
 
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