Peterlag
Well-known member
I did not bring up the majority subject. You did.
The Trinity and the Incarnation
- Thread starter Rory Wilson
- Start date
Peterlag
Well-known member
A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.
It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Good post. Rory.
In my opinion, the most striking paradox, is that for some few Christians, the adherence to this doctrine they can’t explain is required by God as a condition to save people.
Otherwise I have no problem with the Trinity.
The doctrine of the Trinity was introduced early in Christianity as an attempt to reconcile polytheistic and monotheistic views of the world.
I respect that, as an intellectual exercise led by theologians.
What I don’t respect is placing this doctrine as the cornerstone of faith and a condition for salvation… as a barrier among Christians and between Christians and believers of other religions. I’m at full war with that.
So Pancho, you do not see why the shiny used corvette you bought should have had an engine in it?
A person does not need to know and confess that a car has an engine in it, but that engine is vital to having a functioning car. When you do not respect the provision for justification by the hand of God, how can you claim to accept that justification and have peace with God? The fallen nature of man puts him at enmity with God. Nothing that men do of their own design cures them of that enmity. In fact, man's own cures affirms that enmity.
civic
Well-known member
Plus in the very early church the deity of Christ was under attack and we see His deity defended by all those who knew the apostles, were their disciples and carried on their teachings. From that time until the 3-4th centuries it shifted to the Plural Godhead under attack hence the official formation of the Trinity was established. They really don’t know their church history at all. Just what they have been told by others.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
This can be answered in at least two ways.
- For those who believe in a single act of creation, then there is no “before”, since God created time. So, since there was not time before time, we shouldn’t think in God sitting in solitude for trillions of “years” doing nothing and loving nobody.
- For those who believe in infinite acts of creation, God has always been a Creator and has always had somebody to love. This is the position more aligned to theology of the Bahai Faith. Bahá’u’lláh taught that God has always been a Creator. The notion of previous universes, parallel universes or future universes that start and end an infinite number of times is compatible with science. Also the idea of an eternal universe, with focal singularities of expansion of the time-space fabric.
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Regarding Rubenstein's When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome, a guy that gave the book a two-star rating says this at the end of his assessment:
Larry Hurtado's book, "How on Earth Did Jesus Become a God?"
I have not read this other book, but it sounds like a more enlightened view.
Larry Hurtado's book, "How on Earth Did Jesus Become a God?"
I have not read this other book, but it sounds like a more enlightened view.
Peterlag
Well-known member
I looked at some of it as it looks like the whole first chapter is online. He does not give just the facts as Rubenstein does. He gives more about what others thought. I think he comes to the same conclusion that Jesus is not God.
Cyrus
Active member
Jesus is God as the hypostatic union shows us.
The hypostatic union is a theological term for the dual and unified nature of Jesus Christ as God and human in the same person. Christ possessed these two natures, completely and without division or separation. He didn’t become less God by becoming man, nor was he less human by being God.
The mysterious truth of the hypostatic union sits as the foundation of Christian belief. As both God and man, Jesus could reveal the Father completely, live a sinless human life, be the perfect sacrifice on the cross, and rise again victorious, all to bring salvation, reconciliation, and purpose to those who would believe. To weaken the hypostatic union weakens the salvific work of God through Christ.
Like any idea, this doctrine has been challenged by Jews and Gentiles. For Jews, the idea a holy God could become a corrupt man seemed blasphemous, as we see in the Gospels. Jesus’ life and reality made it difficult for first century Jews (and many today) to understand the incarnation and Messianic fulfillment.
For Gentiles, especially Greek dualists, divinity and humanity were opposites. The idea that a real god would become human, live humbly, and suffer on a cross (to them, an image of failure) seemed foolish.
The early church fought for this truth and orthodox Christianity maintains it. The New Testament affirms and declares these ideas, helping modern believers to see how crucial the dual nature of God is.
Here tare a few verses declaring the hypostatic union.
The apostle John writes the first chapter of his Gospel to specifically address challenges to the hypostatic union. We can look at verse 1 and 14 of chapter 1.
John 1 opens with the claim, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Here, John establishes the truth of Jesus as God and a separate person. He uses the Greek philosophical term Logos, the word or message of God, to describe Jesus.
John reaches back to Genesis 1 to reveal how when God spoke (“let there be light”), Christ was the word of creation. A message begins as a part of a person and then goes out to the world. Therefore, Jesus is God as the message to the world, born from the Father as the Son, all which happened before Jesus’ physical birth.
John 1:14 establishes how God, as his own message, became a human being in historical time. “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” Two thousand years ago, the Logos became a person – not appearing like a man but actually a baby growing into a man. The Greek word for “became” is egeneto, meaning a real and permanent change. The Word didn’t stop being God but added humanity to his person.
John wrote his Gospel later, during a time when Greek philosophies we call Gnosticism started challenging the early church’s doctrine. John begins his writing with these two verses to confirm the dual nature of Christ.
The apostle Paul, once a Jewish religious theologian working against Jesus, became a disciple of Jesus through radical revelation. Growing into his destiny as an apostle, this man also addressed and affirmed the hypostatic union.
For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,
Colossians 2:9
While a short statement, Paul declares the complete and full Godhead within a real body, not a facsimile. God placed himself fully within a human man.
Looking at the phrase “all the fullness of the Godhead,” Paul uses the Greek theotes to describe the total essence of God. Not just being like God, but the full deity. Paul teaches how Jesus didn’t only reflect God, He was God. Further, the word “dwells” (Greek katoikei) is used in the present tense, meaning Jesus continues to be fully human and fully God. It wasn’t a temporary state. Since he ascended as a resurrected man, this makes sense. Christ is eternally God in a resurrected body made of spiritual material (1 Corinthians 15).
Finally, the word “bodily” (somatikos) reiterates how Christ took a physical, human body. Many in those days and today argued Jesus was more like a ghost or illusion, not true flesh. The Gospels address this many times on purpose, and Paul does the same here. The divine nature and the human nature aren’t separated or blended but both in one.
Paul establishes this theology again in Philippians 2:6-7. In this passage, Paul describes how God humbled himself to take on a human body for our sake, to save us. Verse 6 specifically includes how Jesus, “being in very nature God” or “form of God,” didn’t consider his equality with the Father as a source of pride, as if he wouldn’t obey and be born in humble estate as one of us.
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Philippians 2:6-7
The phrase “form of God” (Greek morphe theou) means he shared the nature and status of God. This verse also supports how Jesus remained equal to the Father but chose to submit himself.
Verse 7 adds, “but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.” Jesus didn’t empty himself of being God but chose humility and obedience as a servant, not only to God but humanity, as well. “Being made in human likeness” can also be translated as taking on the complete human nature, body and soul.
These verses declare the hypostatic union but further adds the purpose: for God to become human for the salvation of others. Love lives humble, and Jesus modeled that for us. The eternal Son became man to redeem humanity, uniting God and humanity in himself. We will also receive an immortal, resurrected body like Jesus in the end (1 Corinthians 15).
The writer of Hebrews addresses the Jews, particularly Jewish believers, detailing ways Jesus both connects to what came before and brings something new in a greater covenant. As we can imagine, the letter includes declarations of the hypostatic union.
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
Heb 2:14.
The phrase “share in flesh and blood” refers to taking on a real human body, corrupted and mortal, doomed to temptation and death. Jesus encountered human life, “partook of the same things,” as he chose to take on true humanity, subjecting himself to weakness and suffering. And yet, he wasn’t bound by sin. Although tempted, he chose righteousness as only he could because of his pure, divine nature.
Hebrews explains the purpose of this dual nature, “that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death.” He had to be human to die, but since he was also God and sinless, he broke the power of the Devil, death, and sin. Only God could overcome death and Satan. Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection shows his absolute authority and victory. Both natures were crucial.
Paul wrote to people like he did to churches. The apostle addresses a letter to a young man he discipled, Timothy, a Gentile convert who began to work with Paul to encourage the churches. As a father in the faith, Paul finds true doctrine essential. Within 1 Timothy 2:5, one simple sentence, Paul declares Jesus both God and man, pointing to Christ’s role as mediator, the great and forever High Priest.
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
1 Timothy 2:5
The verse starts with the declaration, “there is one God.” Paul further defines this one God as the mediator, the man Jesus Christ. The best mediators represent both parties in a dispute. Since Jesus had experience as a human – tempted in every way yet without sin – and exists in a renewed, immortal body, he can represent humanity to the Father. Because he is fully God, he can understand the Father’s heart and express him to us, as well. Only someone with these two natures could bridge the gap between God and humanity, reconciling us to the Father through himself.
Again, we see Jesus is God and how essential the hypostatic union becomes when looking at the role and work of Christ, for our salvation and eternal good.
The hypostatic union is a theological term for the dual and unified nature of Jesus Christ as God and human in the same person. Christ possessed these two natures, completely and without division or separation. He didn’t become less God by becoming man, nor was he less human by being God.
The mysterious truth of the hypostatic union sits as the foundation of Christian belief. As both God and man, Jesus could reveal the Father completely, live a sinless human life, be the perfect sacrifice on the cross, and rise again victorious, all to bring salvation, reconciliation, and purpose to those who would believe. To weaken the hypostatic union weakens the salvific work of God through Christ.
Like any idea, this doctrine has been challenged by Jews and Gentiles. For Jews, the idea a holy God could become a corrupt man seemed blasphemous, as we see in the Gospels. Jesus’ life and reality made it difficult for first century Jews (and many today) to understand the incarnation and Messianic fulfillment.
For Gentiles, especially Greek dualists, divinity and humanity were opposites. The idea that a real god would become human, live humbly, and suffer on a cross (to them, an image of failure) seemed foolish.
The early church fought for this truth and orthodox Christianity maintains it. The New Testament affirms and declares these ideas, helping modern believers to see how crucial the dual nature of God is.
Here tare a few verses declaring the hypostatic union.
The apostle John writes the first chapter of his Gospel to specifically address challenges to the hypostatic union. We can look at verse 1 and 14 of chapter 1.
John 1 opens with the claim, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Here, John establishes the truth of Jesus as God and a separate person. He uses the Greek philosophical term Logos, the word or message of God, to describe Jesus.
John reaches back to Genesis 1 to reveal how when God spoke (“let there be light”), Christ was the word of creation. A message begins as a part of a person and then goes out to the world. Therefore, Jesus is God as the message to the world, born from the Father as the Son, all which happened before Jesus’ physical birth.
John 1:14 establishes how God, as his own message, became a human being in historical time. “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” Two thousand years ago, the Logos became a person – not appearing like a man but actually a baby growing into a man. The Greek word for “became” is egeneto, meaning a real and permanent change. The Word didn’t stop being God but added humanity to his person.
John wrote his Gospel later, during a time when Greek philosophies we call Gnosticism started challenging the early church’s doctrine. John begins his writing with these two verses to confirm the dual nature of Christ.
The apostle Paul, once a Jewish religious theologian working against Jesus, became a disciple of Jesus through radical revelation. Growing into his destiny as an apostle, this man also addressed and affirmed the hypostatic union.
For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,
Colossians 2:9
While a short statement, Paul declares the complete and full Godhead within a real body, not a facsimile. God placed himself fully within a human man.
Looking at the phrase “all the fullness of the Godhead,” Paul uses the Greek theotes to describe the total essence of God. Not just being like God, but the full deity. Paul teaches how Jesus didn’t only reflect God, He was God. Further, the word “dwells” (Greek katoikei) is used in the present tense, meaning Jesus continues to be fully human and fully God. It wasn’t a temporary state. Since he ascended as a resurrected man, this makes sense. Christ is eternally God in a resurrected body made of spiritual material (1 Corinthians 15).
Finally, the word “bodily” (somatikos) reiterates how Christ took a physical, human body. Many in those days and today argued Jesus was more like a ghost or illusion, not true flesh. The Gospels address this many times on purpose, and Paul does the same here. The divine nature and the human nature aren’t separated or blended but both in one.
Paul establishes this theology again in Philippians 2:6-7. In this passage, Paul describes how God humbled himself to take on a human body for our sake, to save us. Verse 6 specifically includes how Jesus, “being in very nature God” or “form of God,” didn’t consider his equality with the Father as a source of pride, as if he wouldn’t obey and be born in humble estate as one of us.
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Philippians 2:6-7
The phrase “form of God” (Greek morphe theou) means he shared the nature and status of God. This verse also supports how Jesus remained equal to the Father but chose to submit himself.
Verse 7 adds, “but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.” Jesus didn’t empty himself of being God but chose humility and obedience as a servant, not only to God but humanity, as well. “Being made in human likeness” can also be translated as taking on the complete human nature, body and soul.
These verses declare the hypostatic union but further adds the purpose: for God to become human for the salvation of others. Love lives humble, and Jesus modeled that for us. The eternal Son became man to redeem humanity, uniting God and humanity in himself. We will also receive an immortal, resurrected body like Jesus in the end (1 Corinthians 15).
The writer of Hebrews addresses the Jews, particularly Jewish believers, detailing ways Jesus both connects to what came before and brings something new in a greater covenant. As we can imagine, the letter includes declarations of the hypostatic union.
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
Heb 2:14.
The phrase “share in flesh and blood” refers to taking on a real human body, corrupted and mortal, doomed to temptation and death. Jesus encountered human life, “partook of the same things,” as he chose to take on true humanity, subjecting himself to weakness and suffering. And yet, he wasn’t bound by sin. Although tempted, he chose righteousness as only he could because of his pure, divine nature.
Hebrews explains the purpose of this dual nature, “that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death.” He had to be human to die, but since he was also God and sinless, he broke the power of the Devil, death, and sin. Only God could overcome death and Satan. Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection shows his absolute authority and victory. Both natures were crucial.
Paul wrote to people like he did to churches. The apostle addresses a letter to a young man he discipled, Timothy, a Gentile convert who began to work with Paul to encourage the churches. As a father in the faith, Paul finds true doctrine essential. Within 1 Timothy 2:5, one simple sentence, Paul declares Jesus both God and man, pointing to Christ’s role as mediator, the great and forever High Priest.
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
1 Timothy 2:5
The verse starts with the declaration, “there is one God.” Paul further defines this one God as the mediator, the man Jesus Christ. The best mediators represent both parties in a dispute. Since Jesus had experience as a human – tempted in every way yet without sin – and exists in a renewed, immortal body, he can represent humanity to the Father. Because he is fully God, he can understand the Father’s heart and express him to us, as well. Only someone with these two natures could bridge the gap between God and humanity, reconciling us to the Father through himself.
Again, we see Jesus is God and how essential the hypostatic union becomes when looking at the role and work of Christ, for our salvation and eternal good.
MTMattie
Well-known member
Beautifully and concisely explained. Thank you.
God gave Jesus all authority--How do you explain Michael defeating satan at the war in heaven> Rev 12.
Jesus is Gods son, not God. Catholicism( 2Thess 2:3) translated errors in to fit false council teachings, by satans will in the 4th century.
Cyrus
Active member
And I'm a race car driver.
All who know the bible can see Catholicism NEVER had Jesus. It was the great apostasy, they screwed translating up to fit their false council teachings. such as God being a trinity.
Peterlag
Well-known member
John 10:33
Had the translators rendered the Greek text in verse 33 as they did in verse 34 and 35, then it would read, "...you, a man, claim to be a god." In the next two verses, John 10:34 and 35, the exact same word (theos, without the article) is translated as "god" and not "God." In Acts 12:22, Herod is called theos without the article, so the translators translate it "god." The same is true in Acts 28:6, when Paul had been bitten by a viper and the people expected him to die. When he did not die, "...they changed their minds and said he was a god." Since theos has no article, and since it is clear from the context that the reference is not about the true God, theos is translated "a god." It is a general principle that theos without the article should be "a god," or "divine." Since there is no evidence that Jesus was teaching that he was God anywhere in the context, and since the Pharisees would have never believed that this man was somehow Yahweh, it makes no sense that they would be saying that he said he was "God." Now since Jesus was clearly teaching that he was sent by God and was doing God's work. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the Pharisees would say he was claiming to be "a god" or "divine."
Had the translators rendered the Greek text in verse 33 as they did in verse 34 and 35, then it would read, "...you, a man, claim to be a god." In the next two verses, John 10:34 and 35, the exact same word (theos, without the article) is translated as "god" and not "God." In Acts 12:22, Herod is called theos without the article, so the translators translate it "god." The same is true in Acts 28:6, when Paul had been bitten by a viper and the people expected him to die. When he did not die, "...they changed their minds and said he was a god." Since theos has no article, and since it is clear from the context that the reference is not about the true God, theos is translated "a god." It is a general principle that theos without the article should be "a god," or "divine." Since there is no evidence that Jesus was teaching that he was God anywhere in the context, and since the Pharisees would have never believed that this man was somehow Yahweh, it makes no sense that they would be saying that he said he was "God." Now since Jesus was clearly teaching that he was sent by God and was doing God's work. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the Pharisees would say he was claiming to be "a god" or "divine."
DavidTree
Well-known member
It is 100% fact that you do not have the Holy Spirit within you.
If you did you would know the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.
You need to turn away from the false witnesses(watchtower) and follow the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE
DavidTree
Well-known member
How is it that you do not understand?
watchtower deception blinds your mind to the Holy Scriptures of TRUTH
RCC and watchtower = BFF
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