Jesus said--I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me= The Father is the destination for all true followers as Jesus clearly shows at John 4:22-24
The Trinity and the Incarnation
- Thread starter Rory Wilson
- Start date
I posted fact. Any can look it up for themselves, Thats if they care about life everlasting-FEW do.
Johann
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Runningman
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If the Trinity is supposed to account for God's love as an inherently social act (involving an object of love eternally), why does it go on to say in various parts of the New Testament that the Father alone is 'the one and only true God' (as in John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6), with the Son distinctly included as the one mediating between God and men? This undermines the co-equality and co-eternality that Trinitarianism reasoning requires. Mediators are a go-between between parties. Jesus and Moses both fulfilled this role simply because people cannot hear or understand God unless they are fit for the task.
Runningman
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I say Jesus is a created being. John 1:14, Colossians 1:15, Acts 17:24,25, and Revelation 3:14 all support this.
Johann
Active Member
Would it help if I provided you with sources that clearly refute your assertions? Let me know and I will gladly assist.
The Koine Greek simply does not permit the claim that Jesus is a created being. Nor the Hebrew Scripture/Tanack/LXX.
J.
Runningman
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Provided that I can prove that men are created, and Jesus is a man, then you have steep hill to climb to prove that, but yes please provide your verses.
Johann
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Runningman
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At least very basic. I've studied it but never took any classes on it and don't really need to. It's not difficult to sort out with all of the tools available today.
You have some kind of Polytheism going on there. How can Jesus be around before Abraham, and be one who was beside God during creation, and be just a man?
Aside from this.. firstborn over all creation..check the context.
Things like 'son of man'
'Begotten'
'First born'
Have deeper meaning in comparison with other key verses
DavidTree
Active Member
Only those who do not belong to YHWH YAHshua HaMashiach are being misled.
REALITY is "IAM the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE, no one comes to the FATHER but thru ME/JESUS"
Johann
Active Member
Great, then I don't need to expound on the very verses you have given or walk you through the grammar and morphology as you rightly said, there are online tools available--
I'll leave you with this and then move on.
Your claim that Jesus is a created being collapses under the weight of the Greek text itself...
John 1:3 – πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο... “All things came into being through Him”
Verb: ἐγένετο (aorist middle indicative, 3rd person singular of γίνομαι)
Meaning: “came into existence” or “became”
Syntax: δι’ αὐτοῦ (through Him – dia + genitive)... makes Him the agent, not part of the created group
Note: πάντα (all things)... includes all created things without exception... He cannot create Himself
Colossians 1:16–17 – ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα... πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται
Verbs: ἐκτίσθη / ἔκτισται (aorist/passive and perfect/passive of κτίζω)
Meaning: “were created” and “have been created”
Christ is both the instrumental agent (δι’ αὐτοῦ) and final goal (εἰς αὐτόν)... not among the created
Hebrews 1:2 – δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας
Verb: ἐποίησεν (aorist active indicative of ποιέω)
God made the ages through the Son... again, agent not product
Hebrews 1:3 – ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης... χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ
“Radiance of His glory... exact imprint of His essence”
Not language of a created being... but of essential unity and shared divine nature
Nowhere is Jesus ever described using verbs like ἐγένετο or ἐκτίσθη referring to His own origin... only to the created order which He Himself brought into being.
Shalom.
J.
DavidTree
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Peterlag
Active Member
Jesus was “one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin” (Hebrew 4:15), and yet the Bible is clear that God cannot be tempted: “for God cannot be tempted with evil” (James 1:13).
Angels ministered to and strengthened Jesus at times of weakness or difficulty and we see this in Luke 22:43 that says “And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him” [in the garden of Gethsemane]. Humans need to be strengthened, but God does not need to be strengthened by angels or by anyone or anything.
Scripture says very plainly that Jesus died. God cannot die. Romans 1:23and other verses say that God is immortal. Orthodox Christian doctrine teaches only the human side of Jesus died, but that assertion is based on assumptions because there's no verse of Scripture that says anything like“only the human side of the nature of Jesus died.”
In John 14:12 Jesus told his disciples that “whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do.” If Jesus was God, then his statement would be a commission for us to do greater works than God—which is not possible.
Part of the great hope that we Christians have is that in the future Jesus “will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body” (Philippians 3:21). So in the future we will have bodies that are like the body that Jesus has, which would hardly seem appropriate if Jesus is God in the flesh.
Angels ministered to and strengthened Jesus at times of weakness or difficulty and we see this in Luke 22:43 that says “And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him” [in the garden of Gethsemane]. Humans need to be strengthened, but God does not need to be strengthened by angels or by anyone or anything.
Scripture says very plainly that Jesus died. God cannot die. Romans 1:23and other verses say that God is immortal. Orthodox Christian doctrine teaches only the human side of Jesus died, but that assertion is based on assumptions because there's no verse of Scripture that says anything like“only the human side of the nature of Jesus died.”
In John 14:12 Jesus told his disciples that “whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do.” If Jesus was God, then his statement would be a commission for us to do greater works than God—which is not possible.
Part of the great hope that we Christians have is that in the future Jesus “will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body” (Philippians 3:21). So in the future we will have bodies that are like the body that Jesus has, which would hardly seem appropriate if Jesus is God in the flesh.
Runningman
Active Member
There are more verses than John 1:3 in John 1. There is also John 1:2 where it says the God the Word was with is the "He" through whom all things were made.
It's fascinating that you would make the claim that my claims of Jesus being created would collapse when presented with such feeble evidence. You just described Jesus as a tool of creation, not the Creator.
Once again, Jesus is described as a "channel" through whom something was created and it's ironic you claim superiority on the Greek grammar. The literal translation of what was created through Jesus in these last days was the "ages" when God spoke through His Son. Therefore God didn't speak through the Son in the past when the creation of the world occured.
You would have a point if you didn't ignore context. You would need to write a full Bible commentary to explain away the context.
Peterlag
Active Member
Hebrews is a quote from Psalms and so we can forget about...
Hebrews because Psalms is saying your throne oh God is forever. Not Jesus is forever. In Hebrews it's quoted referring to Jesus having the use of that throne.Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Psalms 45:6
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Again, agency is a key part of this as @Johann has typed.
An agent now, doesn't have quite the same meaning as then, and particularly with Hebrew meaning.
So.. an agent working on behalf of another.. was 'as the man themselves'
So.. what the agent said.. it was taken to be who they represented said. Who they were an agent for.
This could mean two separate beings.. not related..but the Bible examples are of an agent ..Jesus, of the Father who Had the same attributes and power. The image of the Father.. God in human flesh..bodily expression of the Father etc..
That's why the Pharisees spoke of Him blaspheming. They knew this type of agency where the agent is seen as the one sending the agent.
It's not the same kind of agency we often think of for today.
An agent now, doesn't have quite the same meaning as then, and particularly with Hebrew meaning.
So.. an agent working on behalf of another.. was 'as the man themselves'
So.. what the agent said.. it was taken to be who they represented said. Who they were an agent for.
This could mean two separate beings.. not related..but the Bible examples are of an agent ..Jesus, of the Father who Had the same attributes and power. The image of the Father.. God in human flesh..bodily expression of the Father etc..
That's why the Pharisees spoke of Him blaspheming. They knew this type of agency where the agent is seen as the one sending the agent.
It's not the same kind of agency we often think of for today.
Runningman
Active Member
I think there is a better translation for this one. Even in Trinitarian theology God does not have a God, but Jesus does.
Johann
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This is exactly what I’m trying to avoid--confrontation...
What you dismiss as “feeble attention,” I see as the very words of God speaking to you...
Yet here you misrepresent me, putting words in my mouth—I never said Jesus was merely a tool...
I clearly stated He is the Agent... the Creator Himself... and even if one used the word “tool,” Scripture still shows Him as the divine means through whom all things came to be.
Take care and God bless.
J.
Johann
Active Member
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