It's Impossible to Believe in Christ Without Believing the Trinity

[MTMattie]

Verse?

Here are a couple. (expanded for clarity)

Romans 1:20 KJV

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

8For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Colosians 2:9 “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”

6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

 

[Runningman]

Here are a couple. (expanded for clarity)

Romans 1:20 KJV

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

8For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Colosians 2:9 “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”

6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Godhead means the Deity. So the Deity is God. The fullness of God is in Jesus, not that Jesus is the fullness of God. Don't ignore those nuances and you'll get it right. The fullness of God is something that can be in others too.

Ephesians 3
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

 

[MTMattie]

It may have taken you many years to "see" the Trinity because it isn't stated directly in the Bible, explained, or described. It takes a lot of willfully ignoring what the Bible says at face value to come to other conclusions than those revealed by the plain text. It's because the Trinity is neither intuitive nor easy to indoctrinate oneself into. It takes years of repetition to break down the walls of reason and conventional logic to replace it with a philosophy that dozens of named Trinitarian scholars of standing and status have come out to publicly confess is an incomprehensible mystery.

That being said, an interpretation or philosophy about a Trinity is speculative at best. Would you be willing to accept that the Bible is already the revelation and that no more needs to be added to it? If so, you may find that the plain text of the Bible that directly says who God is should be sufficient and is superior to an interpretation, requires no additional explaining, already uses your inherent common sense, is not difficult to understand, and is easy to digest.

So throughout the entire Old Testament, God is referred to as a singular He. Throughout the New Testament, there is but one God, the Father. The Bible directly says these things, but on the other hand does not repeat the philosophy you have attached to the Scripture in your OP.

That being said, yes it's required to believe in Jesus Christ without believing in the Trinity. The Trinity is a highly sectarian belief, but it isn't reflected in Scripture by God, Jesus, the prophets, or anyone else. With something as important as who God is you would have thought they would have even mentioned it one time that God is a Trinity, but alas there is nothing.

@Runningman

Curiosity begs......

What do you think a Godhead is?

Who do you think in in Jehovah's Godhead?

Godhead means the Deity. So the Deity is God. The fullness of God is in Jesus, not that Jesus is the fullness of God. Don't ignore those nuances and you'll get it right. The fullness of God is something that can be in others too.

Ephesians 3
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

RIGHT NOW.... DO NOT STOP... DO NOT GO TO ANOTHER POST UNTIL YOU PROVIDE 5 DICTIONERY DEFINITIONS OF GODHEAD

AND DONT BOTHER ME AGAIN UNTIL YOU DO

 

[Runningman]

@Runningman

Curiosity begs......

What do you think a Godhead is?

Who do you think in in Jehovah's Godhead?

RIGHT NOW.... DO NOT STOP... DO NOT GO TO ANOTHER POST UNTIL YOU PROVIDE 5 DICTIONERY DEFINITIONS OF GODHEAD

AND DONT BOTHER ME AGAIN UNTIL YOU DO

Godhead means Deity in the Bible. Ever heard of a concordance or lexicon? It is not compound God of three persons.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Godhead means Deity in the Bible. Ever heard of a concordance or lexicon? It is not compound God of three persons.

I’d like to add that the term is not known in all languages.
In Spanish “Godhead” is just God. I never understood the term when I joined discussions in English and felt uncomfortable to include the term in any argument or counterargument. The term looked even offensive to me, a Spanish-speaker. God does not have a “head”, a leader or director. God is the head, leader or director.

How you visualize God when you hear or read the name is influenced by the language you speak.

 

[101G]

Godhead means the Deity. So the Deity is God. The fullness of God is in Jesus, not that Jesus is the fullness of God. Don't ignore those nuances and you'll get it right. The fullness of God is something that can be in others too.

Ephesians 3
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Godhead means "deity", I agree. but the question, "HOW MANY DEITY IS IT?". I say only "ONE", do you agree? if not, may 101G ask you a question? the ONE DEITY in John 1:3 the Word, did he not MAKE ALL THINGS?" yes, but is this not the same ONE DEITY who MADE ALL THINGS in Isaiah 44:24 who was ALONE and BY HIMSELF when he MADE ALL THINGS? yes or no.

looking to hear your reply. in much G.L.

101G

 

[Behold]

It is impossible to believe explicitly in the mystery of Christ without faith in the Trinity,

Sinners come to Christ.
Were they theologians before they came to Christ?
You were not..

What were you before you came to Jesus?
You were a sinner who lived to sin.

So, The prerequisite that God requires to save you, is not that you have studied the Trinity doctrine and believe it.
What God requires of you, to save you, is that you are a sinner.

We all qualified, who are now born again, ..........and everyone who isn't is qualified., because "JESUS came into the world to save SINNERS".. .not the "predestined Elect" as Lying Hyper Calvinism, TULIP... "the 5 points"... teach.

 

[Runningman]

I’d like to add that the term is not known in all languages.
In Spanish “Godhead” is just God. I never understood the term when I joined discussions in English and felt uncomfortable to include the term in any argument or counterargument. The term looked even offensive to me, a Spanish-speaker. God does not have a “head”, a leader or director. God is the head, leader or director.

How you visualize God when you hear or read the name is influenced by the language you speak.

There are theological definitions and textbook definitions that don't support the theological definitions. So there is a disconnect between those who just understand the language for what it says versus those who project their interpretation onto it. Trinitarianism has a long history of doing this so it's possible that after many centuries of denying what the Bible says that the consensus might change. Fortunately, we have records to the contrary.

 

[Runningman]

Godhead means "deity", I agree. but the question, "HOW MANY DEITY IS IT?". I say only "ONE", do you agree? if not, may 101G ask you a question? the ONE DEITY in John 1:3 the Word, did he not MAKE ALL THINGS?" yes, but is this not the same ONE DEITY who MADE ALL THINGS in Isaiah 44:24 who was ALONE and BY HIMSELF when he MADE ALL THINGS? yes or no.

looking to hear your reply. in much G.L.

101G

Singular God. Just check the Greek/Hebrew. Singular God in John 17:3 too.

 

[mikesw]

There are theological definitions and textbook definitions that don't support the theological definitions. So there is a disconnect between those who just understand the language for what it says versus those who project their interpretation onto it. Trinitarianism has a long history of doing this so it's possible that after many centuries of denying what the Bible says that the consensus might change. Fortunately, we have records to the contrary.

You missed it when Peterlag had a trinitarian moment. He was noting passages that said Christians in the second century were again affirming the Triune baptism approach given in Matt 28:19-20 even though the scant mention of baptism naming in Acts was only with Christ named. That is kind of a short period of time for Trinity concepts of the Godhead to develop.

 

[Runningman]

You missed it when Peterlag had a trinitarian moment. He was noting passages that said Christians in the second century were again affirming the Triune baptism approach given in Matt 28:19-20 even though the scant mention of baptism naming in Acts was only with Christ named. That is kind of a short period of time for Trinity concepts of the Godhead to develop.

Trinitarianism was one of many among a sea of sects. There were many shortly after the beginning, but trinitiarianism wasn't codified until the 3rd and 4th century. That isn't to say it received some sort of divine thumbs up. They lost their capital, Constantinople, to the Muslims in a no contest victory and you all never got it back. Lord God Almighty obviously permitted it.

On top of that, you all have a history stained with brutality and other miscellaneous crime against humanity. In the present day, your all's fangs have been filed down. I don't see your point.

 

[101G]

Singular God. Just check the Greek/Hebrew. Singular God in John 17:3 too.

please answer the John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 question first, and then we cand address John 17:3 and thru verse 5... (smile).
Now, is the person in John 1:3, "WHO MADE ALL THINGS", the same one Person in Isaiah 44:24, "WHO MADE ALL THINGS", YES OR NO?
YOUR ANSWER PLEASE.

101G.

 

[Runningman]

please answer the John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 question first, and then we cand address John 17:3 and thru verse 5... (smile).
Now, is the person in John 1:3, "WHO MADE ALL THINGS", the same one Person in Isaiah 44:24, "WHO MADE ALL THINGS", YES OR NO?
YOUR ANSWER PLEASE.

101G.

John 1:2,3, following the pronoun antecedent agreement, doesn't identify the Word as the Creator. It says that the God that the Word was with is the Creator because Him refers back to the previously mentioned God, not the Word.

John 1​

2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.​

 

[101G]

John 1:2,3, following the pronoun antecedent agreement, doesn't identify the Word as the Creator.

is not God the creator? and the Word in John 1:1 is God...... John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

It says that the God that the Word was with is the Creator because Him refers back to the previously mentioned God, not the Word.

nonsense. is not the term "WITH" describing the same one person? scriptural Protocall example. FIRST "WITH" the LAST. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." the first the "LORD" is .... WITH ........ the Last? same one person. let's see. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." BINGO. the First that is ... "WITH" .... the Last is the same "ONE" person. so, likewise, the "Word" in John 1:3 that was "WITH" God is God.
so, now.... KNOWING THIS, my original question still stands. is the "Person" in John 1:3 the Word who is God..... the same one PERSON, .... "GOD" in Isaiah 44:24. yes or NO?

your reply please.

101G.

 

[mikesw]

Trinitarianism was one of many among a sea of sects. There were many shortly after the beginning, but trinitiarianism wasn't codified until the 3rd and 4th century. That isn't to say it received some sort of divine thumbs up. They lost their capital, Constantinople, to the Muslims in a no contest victory and you all never got it back. Lord God Almighty obviously permitted it.

On top of that, you all have a history stained with brutality and other miscellaneous crime against humanity. In the present day, your all's fangs have been filed down. I don't see your point.

So you say because people did evil that the word of God failed? I think you have it backwards. God sent his Son to be incarnate among the Jews and even some gentiles. Just because heretics were identified and rejected in the 3rd and 4th century does not mean that latecomers should also join in heresy. If the unitarians could prove their case, that would be a whole different story.
You are kind of reducing things to absurdity. Just because there were many sects that misunderstood the deity of Christ does not mean they were somehow right.

 

[Runningman]

is not God the creator? and the Word in John 1:1 is God...... John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

nonsense. is not the term "WITH" describing the same one person? scriptural Protocall example. FIRST "WITH" the LAST. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." the first the "LORD" is .... WITH ........ the Last? same one person. let's see. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." BINGO. the First that is ... "WITH" .... the Last is the same "ONE" person. so, likewise, the "Word" in John 1:3 that was "WITH" God is God.
so, now.... KNOWING THIS, my original question still stands. is the "Person" in John 1:3 the Word who is God..... the same one PERSON, .... "GOD" in Isaiah 44:24. yes or NO?

your reply please.

101G.

Just go with what the Bible says. So are you saying when a pronoun is mentioned we're allowed to just attach it to anyone? IYou should pay careful attention to context. The Word is never said to be Creator anywhere in all of Scripture. However, God is the Creator. I hope we don't need to post Bible verses to show you thzat.

So are you saying your god died in your belief system?

 

[Runningman]

So you say because people did evil that the word of God failed? I think you have it backwards. God sent his Son to be incarnate among the Jews and even some gentiles. Just because heretics were identified and rejected in the 3rd and 4th century does not mean that latecomers should also join in heresy. If the unitarians could prove their case, that would be a whole different story.
You are kind of reducing things to absurdity. Just because there were many sects that misunderstood the deity of Christ does not mean they were somehow right.

The entire Bible proves Unitarianism. You're working this from the wrong angle. You begin with a belief and then attach verses to it. I begin with verses and believe them. For example, you have no mention of trinitarianism in the Bible. I have mentions of Unitarianism in the Bible. John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:6, Eph. 4:6, 1 John 5:20, and tons of examples of the Father being independent and distinct from everyone else. Do you see that or no?

 

[101G]

Just go with what the Bible says. So are you saying when a pronoun is mentioned we're allowed to just attach it to anyone?

GINOLJC, to all
yes, in context.

you should pay careful attention to context.

see above... (smile)

The Word is never said to be Creator anywhere in all of Scripture.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:2 "The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
THE SAME? yes, the SAME "WORD" was GOD. ........ context, context, Context.

Now, can you please answer my original question ...... please. is the WORD here in John 1:1-3 who is the SAME, GOD. is this the same one person in Isaiah 44:24 who is God that "MADE ALL THINGS?" yes or no...... your answer please.

101G.

 

[mikesw]

The entire Bible proves Unitarianism. You're working this from the wrong angle. You begin with a belief and then attach verses to it. I begin with verses and believe them. For example, you have no mention of trinitarianism in the Bible. I have mentions of Unitarianism in the Bible. John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:6, Eph. 4:6, 1 John 5:20, and tons of examples of the Father being independent and distinct from everyone else. Do you see that or no?

You have become the one verse unitarian. That is what I call the wrong angle. Even Eph 4:4-6 includes Jesus as Lord and the Spirit. So you include the Trinune God in that passage.

 

[MTMattie]

John 1:2,3, following the pronoun antecedent agreement, doesn't identify the Word as the Creator. It says that the God that the Word was with is the Creator because Him refers back to the previously mentioned God, not the Word.

John 1​

2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.​

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He (the Word) was in the beginning with God.

3; All things came into being through Him, ( the Word) and apart from Him (the word) nothing came into being that has come into being.

Even the JW NWT gives the Word a place in creation. might be a different view calling him a little god (small g) but is there, none the less.
Naming at least 2 in the creation of things.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

2 This one was in the beginning with God.

3. All things came into existence through him, ( this Word) and apart from him ( this Word) not even one thing came into existence.

4. What has come into existence by means of him ( this Word) was life, and the life was the light of men.*

So even the JW say this little god created life.... proving even they know at least 2 were there in the beginning. Yahweh and this little god.

Proof enough that the WORD was the creator.