The Trinity and the Incarnation

[dwight92070]

They called Jesus Lord because he was divine. He was the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and then made both Lord and Christ after he was resurrected out from among the dead.

"for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord."

He was Savior, Christ, and Lord even at His birth.

 

[dwight92070]

Error translations give worship to one who has a God. Its the same Greek word as bowing in (Obeisance to a king, that is what the 3 magi did.

As I said, if you don't worship Jesus, you're NOT one of His disciples. JW's worshiped Jesus until 1954, when they were told that worshiping Jesus was idolatry. Of course, whatever the Watchtower tells them, they must believe - never mind the fact that the new doctrine is 180 degrees from the old doctrine. The Watchtower doctrine has been changed countless times. The main "error translation" is the New World "Translation. Your "God" is the Watchtower Society and that is idolatry.

 

[synergy]

They called Jesus Lord because he was divine. He was the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and then made both Lord and Christ after he was resurrected out from among the dead.

Jesus is as Divine as YHWH/Jehovah (and Adonai) is. That's because the Bible is teaching and proving the fact that Jesus is God by virtue of the fact that he is called "Lord" which comes directly from κυριος as written in the Greek OT (Septuagint), and that in turn comes directly from YHWH/Jehovah and Adonai as written in the Hebrew OT text. That clearly teaches and proves that Jesus is not only as Divine but actually is YHWH/Jehovah/Adonai (God of the OT).

 

[Peterlag]

"for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord."

He was Savior, Christ, and Lord even at His birth.

Peter’s teaching to the Jews on the Day of Pentecost says “God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36). God must have greater authority than Jesus in order to make him the "Lord." Christ would have already been the "Lord” if he was God—in which case God would not need to “make” him the "Lord." It's also taught that Jesus must be God because he's called the “Lord.” The Greek word for Lord is kurios and is a masculine title of respect and nobility, which is why we see many others besides God and Jesus being called the “Lord."

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus is as Divine as YHWH/Jehovah (and Adonai) is. That's because the Bible is teaching and proving the fact that Jesus is God by virtue of the fact that he is called "Lord" which comes directly from κυριος as written in the Greek OT (Septuagint), and that in turn comes directly from YHWH/Jehovah and Adonai as written in the Hebrew OT text. That clearly teaches and proves that Jesus is not only as Divine but actually is YHWH/Jehovah/Adonai (God of the OT).

Peter’s teaching to the Jews on the Day of Pentecost says “God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36). God must have greater authority than Jesus in order to make him the "Lord." Christ would have already been the "Lord” if he was God—in which case God would not need to “make” him the "Lord." It's also taught that Jesus must be God because he's called the “Lord.” The Greek word for Lord is kurios and is a masculine title of respect and nobility, which is why we see many others besides God and Jesus being called the “Lord."

 

[dwight92070]

2 Corinthians 8:9 "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich."

When was the Lord Jesus Christ rich? Certainly not while He was on earth. It appears He owned nothing but the clothes on His back - in fact, even those may have been given to Him by His followers.
The only possible time He could have been rich was in His pre-existence - but of course no man has ever pre-existed - except Jesus, showing He was and is God

 

[Peterlag]

 

[synergy]

The Greek word for Lord is kurios and is a masculine title of respect and nobility, which is why we see many others besides God and Jesus being called the “Lord."

Are you saying that the Apostles did wrong by using the title "Lord" (κυριος) to indicate only reverence, or worship when referring to Jesus or God the Father??? Seriously??? Cults always think that they know better than the Apostles.

Peter’s teaching to the Jews on the Day of Pentecost says “God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36). God must have greater authority than Jesus in order to make him the "Lord." Christ would have already been the "Lord” if he was God—in which case God would not need to “make” him the "Lord."

The word "made" in Acts 2:36 refers to Christ's Incarnation as a man and not to his eternal Deity which John 1:1 clearly shows he eternally possesses. In taking on human flesh, which was added to Jesus' eternal Deity, Jesus, the man, was made Lord and Christ.

What you're attempting to do is to overwhelm and neutralize John 1:1 with Acts 2:36 which ain't going to happen, my friend.

 

[synergy]

View attachment 1205

This is the error of Modalism. Trinitarianism does not fall into that error.

 

[Peterlag]

Are you saying that the Apostles did wrong by using the title "Lord" (κυριος) to indicate only reverence, or worship when referring to Jesus or God the Father??? Seriously??? Cults always think that they know better than the Apostles.

The word "made" in Acts 2:36 refers to Christ's Incarnation as a man and not to his eternal Deity which John 1:1 clearly shows he eternally possesses. In taking on human flesh, which was added to Jesus' eternal Deity, Jesus, the man, was made Lord and Christ.

What you're attempting to do is to overwhelm and neutralize John 1:1 with Acts 2:36 which ain't going to happen, my friend.

Saying that Jesus is God because others called him Lord or Master or Sir is not a teaching on the trinity. There's no whole paragraph or chapter teaching that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Not even a verse.

 

[Peterlag]

Are you saying that the Apostles did wrong by using the title "Lord" (κυριος) to indicate only reverence, or worship when referring to Jesus or God the Father??? Seriously??? Cults always think that they know better than the Apostles.

The word "made" in Acts 2:36 refers to Christ's Incarnation as a man and not to his eternal Deity which John 1:1 clearly shows he eternally possesses. In taking on human flesh, which was added to Jesus' eternal Deity, Jesus, the man, was made Lord and Christ.

What you're attempting to do is to overwhelm and neutralize John 1:1 with Acts 2:36 which ain't going to happen, my friend.

Jesus is called many things such as Master, Lord, Messiah, but never God.

 

[Dizerner]

Saying that Jesus is God because others called him Lord or Master or Sir is not a teaching on the trinity. There's no whole paragraph or chapter teaching that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Not even a verse.

Well, there are descriptions of attributes that only apply to God, such as creating all things, upholding all things, receiving the adulation of all things, and possessing all authority.

 

[MTMattie]

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I cannot help but wonder why so many people assume that if there is a trinity that it is comprised of only 1 being?

And then believe that if there are 3 beings, one it the head over the other two making the other two not equal to the head.

And then believing that if there is one being doing three parts that comprises a trinity without the confusion of needing to believe there are three, or why they are needed.

But it never occurs to them that as we have been told that a man shall leave his mother and father and marry.. and the TWO shall become one flesh., each having their own jobs to do through life. Because a man can never give physical birth to a baby. And a woman will never have the strength of a man when it is needed.

And I wonder if they believe if there is not 3.... if there is no trinity... if they believe in a duet ( like man and his wife)?

They really need to consider that if that be the case, then when Jesus ( named as commanded, because Jesus would save his people) was conceived by the Holy Spirit, if they were not two, then that would have meant that the Father actually came to earth and impregnated Mary
Himself

OR

If the Holy Spirit was separate but not God, with God in the Godhead... that would mean that the Father would have been Jesus' adopted Father and the Spirit would have been His birth Father.

So many considerations need to be thought out and explained when one disses the Trinity for lack of understanding and creates a meme such as the one here.

 

[Peterlag]

I cannot help but wonder why so many people assume that if there is a trinity that it is comprised of only 1 being?

And then believe that if there are 3 beings, one it the head over the other two making the other two not equal to the head.

And then believing that if there is one being doing three parts that comprises a trinity without the confusion of needing to believe there are three, or why they are needed.

But it never occurs to them that as we have been told that a man shall leave his mother and father and marry.. and the TWO shall become one flesh., each having their own jobs to do through life. Because a man can never give physical birth to a baby. And a woman will never have the strength of a man when it is needed.

And I wonder if they believe if there is not 3.... if there is no trinity... if they believe in a duet ( like man and his wife)?

They really need to consider that if that be the case, then when Jesus ( named as commanded, because Jesus would save his people) was conceived by the Holy Spirit, if they were not two, then that would have meant that the Father actually came to earth and impregnated Mary
Himself

OR

If the Holy Spirit was separate but not God, with God in the Godhead... that would mean that the Father would have been Jesus' adopted Father and the Spirit would have been His birth Father.

So many considerations need to be thought out and explained when one disses the Trinity for lack of understanding and creates a meme such as the one here.

View attachment 1207

If God who created everything wanted a woman to get pregnant without the normal human way it's done. And you think He had to come to the Earth for that. Then you folks are on a different level of intelligence than I am.

 

[Peterlag]

Well, there are descriptions of attributes that only apply to God, such as creating all things, upholding all things, receiving the adulation of all things, and possessing all authority.

There is no Scripture that says Jesus created all thinks. There are only places that says all things were created by him. And you folks say see... him means God.

 

[Dizerner]

There is no Scripture that says Jesus created all thinks. There are only places that says all things were created by him. And you folks say see... him means God.

Well, this preposition is not distancing Christ away from the creating. I would invite a prayerful and humble consideration of the following points:

12 reasons I believe Jesus is God:​

​

1. A mere creation cannot have eternally co-existed with God.​

2. A mere creation cannot have co-created the world.​

3. A mere creation cannot be enough to atone for an infinite crime against holiness.​

4. A mere creation cannot contain the principle of life itself inside it.​

5. A mere creation cannot destroy the power of death in itself.​

6. A mere creation cannot receive praise and devotion from every created thing.​

7. A mere creation cannot hold all authority in heaven and earth.​

8. A mere creation would have admonitions not to idolize or worship it.​

9. A mere creation cannot potentially directly live inside of all human beings.​

10. A mere creation would not ever be directly associated with anything divine.​

11. A mere creation cannot demand that nothing be loved more than it as it would be commanding idolatry.​

12. A mere creation cannot call itself the only absolute way and truth.​

​

At the point you are willing to accept all 12 things, it is virtually indistinguishable for me from God anyway, and Jesus is God to you whether you use the term "God" or not. The Father is just an order of rank above Jesus with the same attributes and this corresponds to Trinitarian theology. I believe we can find ample Scriptural evidence to support the above 12 points in both Paul and the rest of Scripture. Also when certain verses began to make me feel unsure of this, I have prayed about this directly to God for many years and received personal confirmation that this is the truth.​

​

So the question may well then be asked, "Why isn't it stated more clearly?" That's a good questions and I give a couple of reasons.​

​

1. It is not a doctrine essential to salvation. It is very clear the 12 disciples during Christ's earthly minister did not at all fully realize who he was, and simply had a bare faith that he was a Savior, yet Jesus clearly says they were currently saved with their names written in heaven.​

2. Doctrines are not required to be written out in the clearest way possible, but only to be written out in an essentially deducible way. We know the Bible condemns pedophilia without a verse that says "Thou shalt not molest children."​

3. It is the "glory of kings to search out a matter" and all doctrine doesn't come by intellectually parsing the words of Scripture, but by direct revelation from God, as Jesus said "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you Peter."​

​

In light of this, I invite anyone to continue on their journey with a sincere heart towards God and fervent prayer, and am confident that in the end, if we continue and do not quit with a true humble and teachable heart, the Spirit of God will always eventually get us to true beliefs.​

 

[Peterlag]

Well, this preposition is not distancing Christ away from the creating. I would invite a prayerful and humble consideration of the following points:

12 reasons I believe Jesus is God:​

​

1. A mere creation cannot have eternally co-existed with God.​

2. A mere creation cannot have co-created the world.​

3. A mere creation cannot be enough to atone for an infinite crime against holiness.​

4. A mere creation cannot contain the principle of life itself inside it.​

5. A mere creation cannot destroy the power of death in itself.​

6. A mere creation cannot receive praise and devotion from every created thing.​

7. A mere creation cannot hold all authority in heaven and earth.​

8. A mere creation would have admonitions not to idolize or worship it.​

9. A mere creation cannot potentially directly live inside of all human beings.​

10. A mere creation would not ever be directly associated with anything divine.​

11. A mere creation cannot demand that nothing be loved more than it as it would be commanding idolatry.​

12. A mere creation cannot call itself the only absolute way and truth.​

​

At the point you are willing to accept all 12 things, it is virtually indistinguishable for me from God anyway, and Jesus is God to you whether you use the term "God" or not. The Father is just an order of rank above Jesus with the same attributes and this corresponds to Trinitarian theology. I believe we can find ample Scriptural evidence to support the above 12 points in both Paul and the rest of Scripture. Also when certain verses began to make me feel unsure of this, I have prayed about this directly to God for many years and received personal confirmation that this is the truth.​

​

So the question may well then be asked, "Why isn't it stated more clearly?" That's a good questions and I give a couple of reasons.​

​

1. It is not a doctrine essential to salvation. It is very clear the 12 disciples during Christ's earthly minister did not at all fully realize who he was, and simply had a bare faith that he was a Savior, yet Jesus clearly says they were currently saved with their names written in heaven.​

2. Doctrines are not required to be written out in the clearest way possible, but only to be written out in an essentially deducible way. We know the Bible condemns pedophilia without a verse that says "Thou shalt not molest children."​

3. It is the "glory of kings to search out a matter" and all doctrine doesn't come by intellectually parsing the words of Scripture, but by direct revelation from God, as Jesus said "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you Peter."​

​

In light of this, I invite anyone to continue on their journey with a sincere heart towards God and fervent prayer, and am confident that in the end, if we continue and do not quit with a true humble and teachable heart, the Spirit of God will always eventually get us to true beliefs.​

You use the word "mere" a lot when referring to Jesus. He was not a "mere" man. He was the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the Lord and Christ to the Christian.

Matthew 16:15-16
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

 

[dwight92070]

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All you're showing here is your ignorance of and your mockery of the Trinity.
So do you worship Jesus or not?
If you do, and yet believe He is not God, then you're committing idolatry.
If you don't, then you are not a true disciple of His, because ALL of His disciples worshiped Him, even as they worshiped God.
Even the magi worshiped Him, knowing that only God should be worshiped.

 

[Dizerner]

You use the word "mere" a lot when referring to Jesus. He was not a "mere" man. He was the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the Lord and Christ to the Christian.

You misunderstood my post if you thought I was applying "mere."

My point was the very opposite—nothing about him is "mere."

 

[MTMattie]

Jesus is called many things such as Master, Lord, Messiah, but never God.

Not by you.

But Heb 1:8 states.... But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

So that makes one.

Heb 1:6 prefaces that with .... And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”

A rather odd statement as we are not to worship any other then God.