Peterlag
Well-known member
I'm not looking for proof. I'm looking for a teaching.
The Trinity and the Incarnation
- Thread starter Rory Wilson
- Start date
dwight92070
Well-known member
The magi said, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the East and have come to worship Him." Matthew 2:2
How did they know that seeing an unusual (?) star meant that the King of the Jews had been born? In fact, how did they know that it was a Jewish king and not some other special person? How did they even know that they should worship this King of the Jews? Was not worship reserved for God only?
Obviously, God did some supernatural things here - besides the incarnation itself. He gave them information and encouraged or commanded them to travel the long distance to Israel, specifically Jerusalem. After getting information from Herod, God led them using that same star to direct them to the exact home where Jesus was - some believe He was about 2 years old or younger at this time. He was no longer lying in a manger inside of a stable.
Coming into Jesus' home, when the magi first laid eyes on Him, they immediately fell on their faces before Him and worshipped Him. Obviously, God showed them that Jesus was worthy of worship, even as He Himself is.
Critics say that even today, men bow before royalty - so, that doesn't make it right. Jesus said, You shall serve and worship ONLY the Lord your God.
Did the magi fall on their faces before King Herod and worship him? No. Did they present expensive gifts to Herod? No.
It is likely that even the Jews did not know that the Messiah, when He appeared, should be worshiped. So these foreigners, these magi, are teaching the Jews, giving them an example of how to act around this King of the Jews. Jews believe in only One God, so it must have been strange to see these magi, worshiping this King and falling flat on their faces before Him. Then, as if that was not enough, they gave Him very expensive gifts.
Only God is worthy of such adulation, which makes it quite clear as to who Jesus is - God in the flesh = God incarnate. Do you think that Joseph and Mary understood that?
What were his titles at birth? Emmanuel, The King of the Jews, The Son of God, The Holy Child, my Lord, the Lord, Christ, Messiah, Jesus, the Son of the Most High, Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace, The Word, a Savior, our Savior, The Sunrise from on High.
After His birth, we see other titles: King of Kings, Lord of Lords, The Word of God, The Lamb of God, the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, The Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Light of the World, The Resurrection and the Life, The Bread of Life, The Door of the sheep, The Good Shepherd, The Chief Shepherd, The Way, the Truth, and the Life, the True Vine. our Redeemer, The Bright Morning Star, The Root and the Descendant of David, The Lord of All.
I cannot fathom any person believing that Jesus is any other than Almighty God. Only a hardened heart could reject that, given ALL of the Biblical evidence.
How did they know that seeing an unusual (?) star meant that the King of the Jews had been born? In fact, how did they know that it was a Jewish king and not some other special person? How did they even know that they should worship this King of the Jews? Was not worship reserved for God only?
Obviously, God did some supernatural things here - besides the incarnation itself. He gave them information and encouraged or commanded them to travel the long distance to Israel, specifically Jerusalem. After getting information from Herod, God led them using that same star to direct them to the exact home where Jesus was - some believe He was about 2 years old or younger at this time. He was no longer lying in a manger inside of a stable.
Coming into Jesus' home, when the magi first laid eyes on Him, they immediately fell on their faces before Him and worshipped Him. Obviously, God showed them that Jesus was worthy of worship, even as He Himself is.
Critics say that even today, men bow before royalty - so, that doesn't make it right. Jesus said, You shall serve and worship ONLY the Lord your God.
Did the magi fall on their faces before King Herod and worship him? No. Did they present expensive gifts to Herod? No.
It is likely that even the Jews did not know that the Messiah, when He appeared, should be worshiped. So these foreigners, these magi, are teaching the Jews, giving them an example of how to act around this King of the Jews. Jews believe in only One God, so it must have been strange to see these magi, worshiping this King and falling flat on their faces before Him. Then, as if that was not enough, they gave Him very expensive gifts.
Only God is worthy of such adulation, which makes it quite clear as to who Jesus is - God in the flesh = God incarnate. Do you think that Joseph and Mary understood that?
What were his titles at birth? Emmanuel, The King of the Jews, The Son of God, The Holy Child, my Lord, the Lord, Christ, Messiah, Jesus, the Son of the Most High, Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace, The Word, a Savior, our Savior, The Sunrise from on High.
After His birth, we see other titles: King of Kings, Lord of Lords, The Word of God, The Lamb of God, the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, The Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Light of the World, The Resurrection and the Life, The Bread of Life, The Door of the sheep, The Good Shepherd, The Chief Shepherd, The Way, the Truth, and the Life, the True Vine. our Redeemer, The Bright Morning Star, The Root and the Descendant of David, The Lord of All.
I cannot fathom any person believing that Jesus is any other than Almighty God. Only a hardened heart could reject that, given ALL of the Biblical evidence.
Peterlag
Well-known member
I cannot fathom any person believing that Jesus is any other than the son of God, who is the Messiah to Israel, and the Lord and Christ to the Christian.
John 20:17, Rev 3:12--Jesus disagrees with you. Unless you teach--God has a God, that would make more than 1 God.
Besides the entirety of the Bible, the Deity of Christ was a central teaching point of the Church Practices that the Apostles established. That teaching point was explicitly demonstrated in the Apostles' liturgical practices and Baptismal services:
Eucharistic Celebrations: The Eucharist was viewed as the real presence of Christ and a direct participation of Christ as Deity. The prayer language of the Eucharist often addressed Christ as Lord and God.
Hymns and Prayers: Early Christian hymns, such as the Philippians 2:6–11 Christological Hymn, directly proclaimed Jesus' Deity by affirming that He existed "in the form of God" and was exalted to the highest place.
The Trisagion ("Holy, Holy, Holy"): In the context of early Christian worship, Jesus was often included in the praise given to God, emphasizing His co-equal divinity with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Baptismal formulas from the Apostolic Church invoked the Trinity, emphasizing Jesus’ divine status alongside the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Through Apostolic liturgies and Apostolic Church services, the Apostolic Church explicitly and unequivocally demonstrated their belief in Christ's Deity. This affirmation was at the heart of Apostolic worship and identity.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Um, so you have no Scripture that teaches that Christians should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
The entire Bible teaches and proves the fact that Jesus is God by virtue of the fact that he is called "Lord" which comes directly from κυριος as written in the Greek OT (Septuagint), and that in turn comes directly from YHWH/Jehovah and Adonai as written in the Hebrew text. That clearly teaches and proves that Jesus is YHWH/Jehovah/Adonai (God of the OT).
The Apostles followed the Septuagint and called Jesus κυριος (Lord) which is the Greek name for YHWH and Adonai. They did not use the name "Lord" (κυριος) for anyone besides Jesus and God the Father in the New Testament. While κυριος could be used culturally as a term of respect or authority, the Apostles specifically used "Lord" (κυριος) to indicate divine authority, reverence, or worship when referring to Jesus or God the Father.
For example, Peter addresses Jesus as "Lord" (κυριος) with the understanding of His divine nature, particularly after Jesus' resurrection (Acts 2:36). Similarly, "Lord"(κυριος) is also used in prayers addressed to God the Father (as in Acts 4:24). The Apostles reserve this title, in its spiritual sense, for the divine alone, and there is no record of them calling any other human "Lord" in the same way as they did for Jesus and the Father.
As if that wasn't enough, Jesus explicitly declared himself "I Am" (John 8:58), the very name of the OT God (Ex 3:14). Also, John declared the Word (the Preincarnate Jesus) in John 1:1 as being God, translated from θεὸς in Greek and from Elohim in Hebrew.
MTMattie
Active member
Prove it
MTMattie
Active member
Jesus Is God
Even though Jesus assumed the role of a servant and clothed Himself with flesh, He was nonetheless God, God in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16). Jesus Himself claimed to be the "existing one," the "I AM" (John 8:24; 8:58). Even the Jews recognized that eternal existence belongs only to God (Isaiah 43:10-11). When Jesus made the claim that He was in fact Deity, the Jews got mad and wanted to stone Him (John 8:59). They wanted to stone Him because He was claiming to be equal with God which they considered to be blasphemy. The Jews would have been correct in wanting to stone Jesus IF He were "merely a man" and not really God. But that was not the case. Jesus said: "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). The word "one" means a united one. One not in person, but in essence or nature.Jesus Was Deity On Earth
The attributes of His Deity was manifested while on earth. Notice that Jesus said: "...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9), "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30), and "...in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9). Jesus plainly stated that His Father and He are ONE. Paul said that the fullness of the Godhead dwelled in Jesus while He was housed in the physical body. This can't be much plainer. Jesus was fully God while He lived on this earth.However:
In John 17:5, Jesus asks the Father to return his glory as he had before he became flesh. So, his glory was not limited, but taken away or relinquished. Therefore, Jesus lost an attribute of God. If you don't possess all attributes of what God is (e.g. possess 99% attributes), then you cannot claim to be fully God.
And:
RESPONSE: While Jesus was undoubtedly fully human (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 2:14, 17; 1 Jn. 4:2), he was also fully God (Mk. 2:5-7; Jn. 1:1; 5:18; 8:58; 10:30; 20:28-29). Here, Paul explains that Jesus laid aside the use of his divine attributes –not the attributes themselves (Phil. 2:6-7). Instead of using his own divine attributes, Jesus depended fully on the Spirit to perform his miracles (Jn. 5:19; Lk. 4:18; Rom. 8:11; Mt. 26:53). In fact, the Bible repeatedly points out that Jesus’ miracles were due to the empowering of the Holy Spirit –not Jesus’ own power (Lk. 5:17; Acts 2:22; Acts 10:38).
While he was on Earth, Jesus lacked the use of omniscience (Lk. 8:45; Mt. 24:36; Lk. 2:52), omnipotence (Mk. 6:5; Jn. 5:19), and omnipresence (Jn. 4:4). Cultists assume that Jesus could not have been God; otherwise, he would not lack these attributes. However, these passages make sense in light of the fact that Jesus gave up the use of his divine attributes, while he was on Earth.
I know you don't believe these, but while on earth these make sense that he would pray to His Father for any number of reasons.
Peterlag
Well-known member
John 8:5 is not a teaching on the trinity or a teaching that Christians should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
John 8:58
At the last super, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ. They said literally, "Not I am, Lord" Matthew 26:22, 25. No one would say the disciples were trying to deny they were God because they were using the phrase "Not I am." "I am" was a common way of designating oneself and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. The argument is made that because Jesus was "before" Abraham, Jesus must be God. Jesus figuratively existed in Abraham's time. He did not actually physically exist as a person, but rather he existed in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man. In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus' "I am" statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God's "I am" statement in Exodus 3:14. The two statements are very different. The Greek phrase in John does mean "I am." The Hebrew phrase in Exodus means "to be" or "to become." God was saying "I will be what I will be."
Psalm 104:5-
Jesus answered the pharisees honestly-I am= he existed before Abraham. He did not claim to be God. The lying pharisees said he claimed that just because he existed before Abraham, not by using i am. There is no i am that i am in the Hebrew written OT. It was error found in the corrupted latin translation Jerome used to translate his vulgate. I will be what i will be is the correct translating from Hebrew to English. You are being Mislead.
The Bible doesn't teach things so that you can deny them as you're doing right now. It teaches things so that you can believe them. That's exactly the case here where it's teaching and proving the fact that Jesus is God by virtue of the fact that he is called "Lord" which comes directly from κυριος as written in the Greek OT (Septuagint), and that in turn comes directly from YHWH/Jehovah and Adonai as written in the Hebrew text. That clearly teaches and proves that Jesus is YHWH/Jehovah/Adonai (God of the OT).
dwight92070
Well-known member
You're probably think that the Trinity is 3 Gods, which shows that you don't understand the Biblical concept of the Trinity.
dwight92070
Well-known member
I'm not the one who is a member of a cult.
dwight92070
Well-known member
That's because your heart is hardened to the truth.
If Jesus is God then God has a God correct? Because Jesus has a God-his Father, you know the only one Paul calls God-1Cor 8:6--The one Jesus teaches is the only true God= Father- one who sent him-John 17:3--Its a matter of who one believes.
Peterlag
Well-known member
The Greek word for Lord is kurios and is a masculine title of respect and nobility, which is why we see many others besides God and Jesus being called the “Lord."
- Property owners are called the "Lord" (Matthew 20:8) kurios is “owner” in the NIV.
- Heads of households are called the "Lord" (Mark 13:35) kuriosis "owner."
- Slave owners were called the "Lord" (Matthew 10:24) kuriosis "master."
- Husbands were called the "Lord" (1 Peter 3:6) kurios is "master" in the NIV.
- A son called his father the "Lord" (Matthew 21:30) kuriosis "sir."
- The Roman Emperor was called the "Lord" (Acts 25:26) kurios is "His Majesty."
- Roman authorities were called the "Lord" (Matthew 27:63) kurios is "sir."
MTMattie
Active member
He set the earth on its foundations;
it can never be moved.
This ball of mud ... no.
But you do not understand what is said by John, or do you just discount what he says because it does not agree with your beliefs?
This ball of mud will not be the New Earth.
But I am done trying to make you see anything...
MTMattie
Active member
In the third chapter of Exodus, God first reveals Himself as “I Am” to an 80-year-old man named Moses.
After the fall of man in Genesis, mankind no longer had direct access to God, and even the people of Israel only knew certain aspects of their Creator. In Exodus, God states His own name for the first time: “God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM.’ And He said, ‘Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you’” (Exodus 3:14).
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › I_Am_that_I_Am
I Am that I Am - Wikipedia
According to the Hebrew Bible, in the encounter of the burning bush (Exodus 3:14), Moses asks what he is to say to the Israelites when they ask what gods have sent him to them, and YHWH replies, "I am who I am", adding, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I am has sent me to youI am (biblical term) - Wikipedia
It is connected to the passage in Exodus 3:14 in which God gives his name as אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה , Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh, translated most basically as "I am that I am" or "I shall be what I am". In the Hebrew Bible (Exodus 3:14), it is the personal name of God, revealed directly to Moses. [1]
God’s word to Moses,
“I AM WHO I AM” in the
Hebrew text of Exodus 3:14-15
Now I dont have time to get verses 14 and 15 in full listed here in the Hebrew with the corresponding translations... so here is the link to that
Scroll down to the verses and remember to read right to left
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