For the Father to plan his Son's torture is unloving !

armylngst said:
God did, but you don't understand what that means. You see violence (and there was violence), however, Jesus voluntarily told the Father that He accepts it. You have to understand the nature of Christ. He was both God and human. Both divine and human natures. Both communed in harmony and unity. In Christ you had both the Great High Priest that sanctifies the sacrifice, and the sacrifice that is sanctified. Both parts of the sacrifice existing in one body. While on the cross, the sin that was imputed to the sacrifice by the Great High Priest (read the sacrifice of atonement in the Old Testament), interrupted the communion that had existed from birth between the divine nature, which cannot know sin, cannot become sin, cannot fellowship with sin, from the human nature, which bore the sin imputed by the High Priest (divine nature) onto the sacrifice. The flesh, the humanity, the human, the sacrifice died on the cross. God did not die. However, Peter said that the flesh died, but the spirit was made alive. Alive how? By God. When a human (sinner) dies, the spirit remains dead and is separated from God and goes to torment in hell. When Jesus died, His spirit became alive. Why? No sin. He was sinless. Jesus was with the thief and all the other Old Testament believers in paradise. He was also going through to where the prisoners were chained, and was proclaiming His victory over sin, which those spirits had attempted to thwart during the days of Noah.

The line of "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken Me" was cried out when man's sin came between the flesh and the divine and the fellowship was interrupted. It ended when Jesus said "It is finished". God did not forsake His Son, however, the sin borne by Christ, by the sacrifice, interrupted the fellowship. God cannot have anything to do with sin. That moment comes through with Jesus crying out. This was what Jesus had asked to have pass Him. He knew what He would face. That is why He faced greater pain in the garden then most people will ever feel. This is why He sweat drops of blood. Yet He willingly put Himself aside and told the Father, not My will, but Yours be done. This is why Isaiah 53 says that the Father heaps glory and honor on the Son. This is why the Son is high and lifted up in Isaiah 53, after facing the pain of the beginning of Isaiah 53. He willing laid down His life for the sheep, and willingly took it up again, just as He said. The Jewish people had no power over Him, and He told them as much.
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There was no interrupted fellowship in the Tri-Unity of God on the cross that is a misnomer and its not true about God. They have always been in perfect harmony, unity, fellowship from all eternity otherwise God was no longer God. I address all your false assumptions about Gods unity, fellowship, sin below in this thread.


 
dizerner said:
When people use the God cannot die argument, they seem to often have a physicalist or existential view of death, instead of a Biblical one.

Death, in the Bible, is not cessation of existence, as the annihilitationists argue. This would indeed be a reward for the wicked to find relief.

Death, in the Bible, is the experience of the negative aspects of relating to God—not separation from God altogether, but from experiencing his goodness.

If we pause to consider this new, Biblical, view of death, where God's presence still exists in hell, and the consciousness remains the entire time—we can see that "God dying," is not equal to "God ceasing to exist."

In fact, Christ suffering the punishment of our sins, was God experiencing himself in a negative way, not God disappearing, or being extinguished.
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God can't die. God is eternal. Consider what humans call immortality. What is something that always stands out for the immortal? They can die. Why? They had a beginning. Anything that has a beginning can have an end. God had no beginning, therefore God cannot have an end. If God were to die, or have an end, then God never existed at all. That is how eternity works.

Death is separation from God. Can God be separated from Himself? No. Be very careful when considering the nature of God. Jesus was both God and man. The flesh died on the cross, God did not. God did not separate from Himself. This was a very special situation, because, though the human spirit died, it was made alive. That is, while dying on the cross, separated from God by sin, when He died, the human spirit was reunited with the divine, with the Logos. The human and spirit natures once again in perfect harmony, unity, and communion. (It's difficult to explain properly because this is God, and God is not like us.)
 
armylngst said:
God can't die. God is eternal. Consider what humans call immortality. What is something that always stands out for the immortal? They can die. Why? They had a beginning. Anything that has a beginning can have an end. God had no beginning, therefore God cannot have an end. If God were to die, or have an end, then God never existed at all. That is how eternity works.

Death is separation from God. Can God be separated from Himself? No. Be very careful when considering the nature of God. Jesus was both God and man. The flesh died on the cross, God did not. God did not separate from Himself. This was a very special situation, because, though the human spirit died, it was made alive. That is, while dying on the cross, separated from God by sin, when He died, the human spirit was reunited with the divine, with the Logos. The human and spirit natures once again in perfect harmony, unity, and communion. (It's difficult to explain properly because this is God, and God is not like us.)
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That is one definition of death. Death can also mean the separation of the body from the soul/spirit. So in that sense Jesus ( God ) did die.
 
civic said:
That is one definition of death. Death can also mean the separation of the body from the soul/spirit. So in that sense Jesus ( God ) did die.
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That is what Peter said. The body died, but the spirit was made alive. That last part does not happen for the sinner. Their soul remains dead and goes to hell because of their sin.
 
armylngst said:
That is what Peter said. The body died, but the spirit was made alive. That last part does not happen for the sinner. Their soul remains dead and goes to hell because of their sin.
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Jesus was not a sinner and for the believer to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. As Stephen proclaimed upon His death looking at Jesus- into your hands I commit my spirit.
 
civic said:
Jesus was not a sinner and for the believer to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. As Stephen proclaimed upon His death looking at Jesus- into your hands I commit my spirit.
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I said the last part does not happen for the sinner. The believer has the righteousness of Christ. (Not works. I mean what work can we do that would make us more righteous, more perfect than Jesus?) Don't over complicate it.
 
dizerner said:
It breaks Trinitarian harmony and pits the Father against the Son.

Why would a loving Father put his own Son in harm's way, that's not love?!

Therefore, the Father never planned for Jesus to die on the Cross.

Prove me wrong!
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While I too reject the trinity, I’m not sure how you are connecting it to Christ’s suffering on the cross.

I once took a razor blade and cut my daughter’s skin until it bled. I did this as a loving father because hurt and harm are not the same thing. I sacrificed her being (temporarily) free from hurt to avoid her being harmed (by the nasty splinter).

Sin for all humanity is so much worse. And therefore, requires so much more drastic a remedy.
 
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Olde Tymer said:
FAQ: Seeing as how human sacrifices are not allowed in the covenant that Moses'
people agreed upon with God in the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and
Deuteronomy; how then was it legal for Jesus-- a Jew whose religion was governed
by that covenant --to die for the sins of the world?
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An outstanding question.
Olde Tymer said:
REPLY: The laws of God are not retroactive (Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13) This
is extremely important to note because Jesus was designated, and scheduled, to die
on a cross prior to God beginning to create the cosmos. (1Pet 1:18-21 & Rev 13:8)
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A very unsatisfying answer.

I think a more mature answer is to admit that only God is truly sovereign. He is perfectly in his right to make rules for us that don’t apply to him. Judgement / forgiveness of sin and vengeance are 2 examples.

Another answer which I believe is more satisfying is that God always embraced substitutionary punishment for sins. This is the whole reason the OT is filled with, both plant (grain) and animal sacrifice. It’s only because other people ALSO are image bearers of God and were not to be an option for substitutionary punishment for sin.

The reason Jesus was sacrificed was to signify the OT was replaced with a better covenant.
 
dizerner said:
Let's just say, for anything at all?

Is there a more important reason you can think of?
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Are you able to formulate a cogent question? It’s like you are saying 42 is the answer to everything AND then asking if anything is more. Sorry but you are asking a question involving Circular Reasoning.

To summarize:
  • You ask a question about ‘expressing God’s worth’ that does not relate to the OP.
  • I ask for clarification on what theoretical reason you are referring.
  • You say anything at all AS IF that clarifies in any way.
Expressing God’s worth. 42. There is number that equates to infinity.
 
dizerner said:
Therefore, the Father never planned for Jesus to die on the Cross.

Prove me wrong!
Click to expand...
Of course the Father planned Jesus’ death on the cross.

[Mark 14:35-36 NASB20]
35 And He went a little beyond [them,] and fell to the ground and [began] praying that if it were possible, the hour might pass Him by. 36 And He was saying, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You [will.]"
  • The will of the Father WAS done.

[John 3:14-15 NASB20]
14 "And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him.
  • (Read the Moses story if you have any doubts about the symbolism being presented.)

[John 12:27-36 NASB20]
27 "Now My soul has become troubled; and what am I to say? 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28 "Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified [it,] and will glorify [it] again." 29 So the crowd who stood by and heard [it] were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "An angel has spoken to Him!" 30 Jesus responded and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for yours. 31 "Now judgment is [upon] this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [people] to Myself." 33 Now He was saying this to indicate what kind of death He was going to die. 34 The crowd then answered Him, "We have heard from the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how [is it that] You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man?" 35 So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; also, the one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36 "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light." These things Jesus proclaimed, and He went away and hid Himself from them.
 
atpollard said:
Of course the Father planned Jesus’ death on the cross.

[Mark 14:35-36 NASB20]
35 And He went a little beyond [them,] and fell to the ground and [began] praying that if it were possible, the hour might pass Him by. 36 And He was saying, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You [will.]"
  • The will of the Father WAS done.

[John 3:14-15 NASB20]
14 "And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him.
  • (Read the Moses story if you have any doubts about the symbolism being presented.)

[John 12:27-36 NASB20]
27 "Now My soul has become troubled; and what am I to say? 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28 "Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified [it,] and will glorify [it] again." 29 So the crowd who stood by and heard [it] were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "An angel has spoken to Him!" 30 Jesus responded and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for yours. 31 "Now judgment is [upon] this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [people] to Myself." 33 Now He was saying this to indicate what kind of death He was going to die. 34 The crowd then answered Him, "We have heard from the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how [is it that] You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man?" 35 So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; also, the one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36 "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light." These things Jesus proclaimed, and He went away and hid Himself from them.
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Yup-I am in full agreement here.
J.
 
dizerner said:
You really didn't use the best verses.

What about the definite plan and foreknowledge of God?
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Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

being: Act_3:18, Act_4:28, Act_13:27, Act_15:18; Psa_76:10; Isa_10:6-7, Isa_46:10-11; Dan_4:35; Dan_9:24-27; Mat_26:24; Luk_22:22, Luk_22:37, Luk_24:44-46; Joh_19:24, Joh_19:31-37; Rom_4:17, Rom_11:33-36; 1Pe_1:20, 1Pe_2:8; Jud_1:4; Rev_13:8
ye have: Act_3:13-15, Act_4:10-11, Act_5:30, Act_7:52; Gen_50:20; Mat_27:20-25
 

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