civic
Well-known member
There was both foreknowledge and predestination with the cross. Not all things foreknown are predestined but all things which are predestined are foreknown
For the Father to plan his Son's torture is unloving !
- Thread starter Dizerner
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Johann
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In 5 minutes 2 hour power out-will come back to you.
Johann.
Johann
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Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
The words-in one verse goes -hand in hand
Act 2:23 τουτον τη ωρισμενη βουλη και προγνωσει του θεου εκδοτον λαβοντες δια χειρων ανομων προσπηξαντες ανειλετε
By the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God (tēi hōrismenēi boulēi kai prognōsēi tou theou).
Instrumental case. Note both purpose (boulē) and foreknowledge (prognōsis) of God and “determined” (hōrismenē, perfect passive participle, state of completion).
God had willed the death of Jesus (Joh_3:16) and the death of Judas (Act_1:16), but that fact did not absolve Judas from his responsibility and guilt (Luk_22:22). He acted as a free moral agent.
By the hand (dia cheiros). Luke is fond of these figures (hand, face, etc.) very much like the Hebrew though the vernacular of all languages uses them.
Lawless men (anomōn). Men without law, who recognize no law for their conduct, like men in high and low stations today who defy the laws of God and man. Old word, very common in the lxx.
Ye did crucify (prospēxantes). First aorist active participle of prospēgnumi, rare compound word in Dio Cassius and here only in the N.T. One must supply tōi staurōi and so it means “fastened to the cross,” a graphic picture like Paul’s “nailed to the cross” (prosēlōsas tōi staurōi) in Col_2:14.
Did slay (aneilate). Second aorist active indicative with first aorist vowel a instead of o as is common in the Koiné. This verb anaireō, to take up, is often used for kill as in Act_12:2. Note Peter’s boldness now under the power of the Holy Spirit. He charges the people to their faces with the death of Christ.
RWS
being: Act_3:18, Act_4:28, Act_13:27, Act_15:18; Psa_76:10; Isa_10:6-7, Isa_46:10-11; Dan_4:35; Dan_9:24-27; Mat_26:24; Luk_22:22, Luk_22:37, Luk_24:44-46; Joh_19:24, Joh_19:31-37; Rom_4:17, Rom_11:33-36; 1Pe_1:20, 1Pe_2:8; Jud_1:4; Rev_13:8
ye have: Act_3:13-15, Act_4:10-11, Act_5:30, Act_7:52; Gen_50:20; Mat_27:20-25
Johann.
brightfame52
Well-known member
1 Jn 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Johann
Well-known member
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
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"delivered over" This term (ekdotos) is found only here in the NT. Notice Jesus was revealed by specific choices.
God's plan
Sanhedrin's plan
Judas' plan
Pilates' plan
Jewish mob's plan
but all to a predetermined divine purpose!
NASB "the predetermined plan"
NKJV "the determined counsel"
NRSV "the definite plan"
TEV "God's own plan"
NJB, REB "the deliberate intention"
Peshitta "who was chosen for this purpose"
This is the term horizō in its PERFECT PASSIVE PARTICIPLE form. Its basic meaning is to determine, to appoint, or to fix. In the OT it is used of setting boundaries of land or desires. Luke uses it often (cf. Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23; 10:42; 11:29; 17:26,31).
The cross was not a surprise to God, but had always been His chosen mechanism (i.e., sacrificial system of Leviticus 1-7) for bringing redemption to rebellious humanity (cf. Gen. 3:15; Isa. 53:10; Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21).
Jesus' death was no accident. It was the eternal, redemptive plan of God (cf. Luke 22:22; Acts 3:18; 4:28; 13:29; 26:22-23). Jesus came to die (cf. Mark. 10:45)! The cross was no accident!
"foreknowledge of God" This is the term prognosis (to know before), used only here and in 1 Pet. 1:2.
This concept of God's knowing all of human history is difficult for us to reconcile with human free will. God is an eternal, spiritual Being who is not limited by temporal sequence. Although He controls and shapes history, humans are responsible for their motives and acts.
Foreknowledge does not affect God's love and election. If so, then it would be conditional on future human effort and merit. God is sovereign and He has chosen that His Covenant followers have some freedom of choice in responding to Him (cf. Rom. 8:29; 1 Pet. 1:20).
There are several extremes in this area of theology:
freedom pushed too far (Pelagius)
some say God does not know the future choices and actions of humans (Open Theism, which is a philosophical extension of Process Thought)
sovereignty pushed too far, which becomes God choosing some to heaven and some to hell (supralapsarianism, double-edged Calvinism).
To answer @civic -cannot separate these two words-they work together in the plan and purpose of God re our Messiah-in one verse.
"This one, delivered up by the determined cheshbon (plan) and yedi'ah mukdemet (foreknowledge) of Hashem, and by the hand of lawless Bnei Adam you made him talui al HaEtz (being hanged on the Tree, DEVARIM 21:23) and put him to death. [YESHAYAH 53:10]
horizo. This word (from horos, "boundary") means "to limit" and then figuratively "to fix," "to appoint." Time as well as space can be limited. A literal use occurs in the LXX (cf. Num_34:6; Jos_13:27). We find limitation of time in Heb_4:7 and of time and space in Act_17:26-27. Elsewhere the sense is "to appoint" or "determine" (cf. Luk_22:22; Act_2:23; Act_10:42; Act_11:29; Act_17:31). In Rom_1:4 Jesus is instituted the Son of God in power. Whether the reference here is to a declaration or an appointment is not a matter of great urgency, since a divine declaration is also a divine appointment. In the light of Act_10:42; Act_17:31 what Christ is now declared or appointed to be is to be equated with what he already is from all eternity by divine ordination (hence the addition of a pro- in some readings of Rom_1:4). Apart from Act_11:29, the horizo passages in the NT are all emphatically christological; they relate to the person and work of Jesus Christ.
Johann.
Dizerner
Well-known member
My favorite hyper Calvinist still going strong!
YHWH is a unity in perfect accord and harmony. The Son chose to be the sacrifice for of the sins of the elect before creation...no planning by the Divine Others was necessary.
Dizerner
Well-known member
God does some things that aren't strictly "necessary."
God doesn't "need" angels, for example.
Johann
Well-known member
And yet this is what the Scriptures teach-but I have no idea what you mean by the "divine others"=with a capital O nogal.
GeneZ
Well-known member
The Father planned to never have all mankind die on many crosses.
Deaths we were heading into unless there was a divine intervention.
Because of His love... The Father's divine genius found a way to have His Son die as our substitute.
And, because the Son never sinned and having a fallen nature?
Received back His Son right after clearing the way for us (the Cross) to us live with Him forever.
When a soldier jumps on a grenade to save the lives of his fellow soldiers? Its the highest form of love.
Love endures all for the loved.
grace and peace ...................
GeneZ
Well-known member
Are you Dutch?
Johann
Well-known member
A mix breed.
J.
GeneZ
Well-known member
There were quite a few students in class from Holland when I attended Bible college in the USA.
civic
Well-known member
Oh it was
Not sure why you would reject the trinity. There are a lot of people who do not truly understand what it is, but in order for Jesus sacrifice to accomplish what it accomplished, He had to be both God and man. Both the Great High Priest and the sacrifice in one body. The High Priest sanctifies the sacrifice. If you read the Jewish sacrificial system, it is the High Priest that imputes the sin to the sacrifice of atonement. (The scapegoat in that system, but Jesus was all of it in one.) The reason why John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God", is because Jesus is the Son of God. Son does not just mean begotten. It also means image/nature of. So Jesus was the image/nature of God. So John put it as, was with God, and was God. And Paul said nothing was created except that Jesus created it. (So, Jesus is not a created thing, and did not create Himself. He wasn't created.) The word trinity does not appear in scripture (neither does PSA, and other words that people accept as truth.) However, you can see images of this spread throughout scripture. God says, "Let US create man in OUR own image." Why? He is speaking for the godhead. The reason why royalty is sometimes shown as speaking in the plural is because they speak for the state, not for themselves. So they speak in the plural for themselves + the state. We are not amused. The Queen is not amused. You can be sure, when she says we are not amused, the state is most certainly not amused, because... well they don't want to die.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Actually, not being made able by grace to accept the Trinity is real, causes rejection.
The Trinity is a test to see how one is walking in grace.
It is not something that human function can accept just because someone tells us God is a Trinity.
The Spirit must be able to work in the heart of a believer before the acceptance that the Trinity exists can lock in.
It requires knowledge of the Word we have yet to learn.
I believed in the Trinity before I could understand how the Trinity could make sense.
We first believe because Scripture tells us so. Not because we are clear about it from the get go.
Becoming clear requires growth in knowledge and growing in grace.
It can takes years to settle in with 'understanding' that will satisfy and stabilize.
grace and peace ..............
e v e
Well-known member
the evil realm and adam, not just on this earth but with full transcendent context:
- planned the fall, tortured us, imprison us on this earth, imprison us in this flesh, tortured christ, murdered christ, and continually alter His words the way satan did to eve.
Our father did none of those things.
- planned the fall, tortured us, imprison us on this earth, imprison us in this flesh, tortured christ, murdered christ, and continually alter His words the way satan did to eve.
Our father did none of those things.
HE needs to eradicate evil at the soonest possible time available; HE cannot live with evil.
Therefore to know that HE postponed the judgement day so that the reprobate demons of the evil one and the sinful but good people of the kingdom can live together must mean that HE is forced by HIS own system to proceed in a certain way and must fulfill certain steps before taking the final step of the judgement.
The question was about the Son and the Father...two of the Divine Beings along with the Holy Spirit. When speaking of only one, don't forget there are two other divine beings in the unity.
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