Perhaps you should just justify your claim instead of passing the onus on
Not that I saw
Then you would agree there are core doctrines one must believe if one is to be saved?
The misuse and abuse of John 17:3 by Unitarians to promote Unitarianism.
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Jesus equated himself as being equal to God and taught he was to be honored as men honor the father
Are you speaking of Christmas and Easter?
Clarify. Are you suggesting we should follow Old Testament ceremonial law
No
Jesus kept the Jewish feasts, but New Testament data made them non-obligatory
Are you railing against the New Testament
So even now, you still refuse to exhibit even the simplest and most common of decencies, to answer the questions asked of you.
You can't see something you refuse to look at.
Tom, please try to concentrate on what you are replying to. Stay focused. Here is what I said.
"I'm quite sure I never said, suggested or even implied that personal kindness "saves". But it is a fruit of the Spirit, at least in my understanding of Scriptures."
You can ignore it if you want, but it seems only a simple honesty that if you choose to reply, you address what you are replying to.
Johann
Well-known member
How can you propose a debate on soteriology when your religion does not possess the Scriptures? What foundation will you rely on-the Gospels, the Pauline epistles, or something else entirely?
From what I see, your approach appears to rely more on Jewish-style argumentation or Qur'anic methods of reasoning, focusing on philosophical and scientific interpretations rather than engaging with the authority of Scripture itself. Without the Word of God as the basis, your reasoning is disconnected from the truth revealed in the Bible.
Passages Affirming the Reality of Hell
1. Old Testament References (Hebrew):
Daniel 12:2: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, some to everlasting life, and others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."
The term "everlasting contempt" (לְדִרְאוֹן עוֹלָם, le-diraon olam) signifies eternal shame and separation from God, a concept aligned with later teachings on hell.
Isaiah 66:24: "Then they will go out and look at the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
This verse uses vivid imagery of eternal judgment, with "worms that eat" (תּוֹלָעָתָם לֹא תָמוּת, tola'atam lo tamut) and unquenchable fire (וְאִשָּׁם לֹא תִכְבֶּה, ve-isham lo tikhbeh), prefiguring New Testament descriptions of hell.
2. New Testament References (Greek):
Matthew 25:46: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The phrase "eternal punishment" (κόλασιν αἰώνιον, kolasin aiōnion) explicitly teaches the reality and permanence of hell, contrasting it with "eternal life" (ζωὴν αἰώνιον, zōēn aiōnion).
Mark 9:43-48: "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. ... Where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’"
The term "hell" (γέενναν, Geennan), derived from Gehenna (a valley associated with judgment), emphasizes the unending nature of divine judgment.
Luke 16:23-24: "In Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me...’"
The Greek word ᾅδης, Hades refers to the realm of the dead, where the rich man experiences conscious torment, affirming the reality of judgment after death.
2 Thessalonians 1:9: "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his might."
The term "eternal destruction" (ὄλεθρον αἰώνιον, olethron aiōnion) signifies ongoing separation from God, reinforcing the biblical doctrine of eternal judgment.
Revelation 20:14-15: "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."
The "lake of fire" (λίμνην τοῦ πυρός, limnēn tou pyros) is described as the final and eternal state of judgment.
Scripture consistently affirms the reality of hell as a place of eternal separation from God, using both vivid imagery and direct language. The Hebrew Scriptures introduce the concepts of divine judgment and contempt, while the Greek Scriptures, particularly the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, clarify its eternal nature. Rejecting these truths ignores the foundational authority of God’s Word.
So what are you going to use? The Scriptures or human philosophy?
J.
You didn't answer the question, or even address it. "Would or did Jesus ever create, promote or partake in an image of God in the likeness of some random man?"
Now Tom, it's a simple question, you are a smart guy. Why do you refuse to answer?
The question I asked is simple enough for even a child to understand. "Would or did Jesus ever partake of, or otherwise observe any manmade high days created in worship of an image of God in the likeness of anything on earth or in heaven, including an image in the likeness of a man?"
Again, here is the question. "Would or did Jesus ever reject His Father's Judgments concerning what is clean and holy, and adopt instead the traditions of a religious sect which existed in the world God placed Him in?"
It is simple, a child would have no problem answering this question. Why are you afraid to answer?
Thank you, Tom. I agree with you. Jesus didn't transgress God's Commandments so that HE could walk in the religious traditions of men.
This would be a foundational truth of Christ, a Truth founded on the Rock. Do not let anyone convince you otherwise.
Wait a minute, Tom. You just said Jesus didn't transgress the Commandments of God so that HE could walk in the religious traditions of men. And now you are preaching that Jesus walked in the religious traditions of the "Jews". How do you justify the stark contradiction?
What "Jewish Feasts" do you refer to that Jesus walked in? Can you please identify them for me?
Goodness no. I was just addressing your question concerning why I thought modern religions, "Who call Jesus Lord, Lord", don't consider His Works as Righteousness, or "Wrought in God".
I do appreciate your attempt to answer a couple of my questions though.
Johann
Well-known member
The subtle nuances in asking questions-
Jesus and the Commandments of God
Jesus did not transgress the Commandments of God; in fact, He perfectly fulfilled the Law:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them" (Matthew 5:17).
Jesus' adherence to the Law was flawless, and He consistently upheld God's commandments as they were originally intended, often challenging the legalistic misinterpretations of the religious leaders (Matthew 15:3-9).
2. Jesus and the Traditions of Men
Jesus sharply rebuked the religious leaders for placing human traditions above God's commandments:
"Why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matthew 15:3).
"In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark 7:7).
However, it is essential to distinguish between traditions that contradicted God’s law (which Jesus opposed) and legitimate practices prescribed by the Law or allowed within Jewish culture, which He often participated in.
3. Jesus Observing Jewish Feasts
The feasts Jesus observed were not mere "traditions of men" but were commanded by God in the Torah. These include:
Passover (Pesach):
Jesus observed Passover regularly and instituted the Lord’s Supper during a Passover meal:
"Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus, saying, 'Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?'" (Matthew 26:17).
This was in obedience to the command in Exodus 12:14-20, where God ordained the observance of Passover.
Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot):
Jesus attended the Feast of Tabernacles, even teaching at the temple during this festival:
"Now the Jews’ Feast of Booths was at hand... But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private" (John 7:2, 10).
The Feast of Tabernacles is commanded in Leviticus 23:33-43 as a celebration of God’s provision.
Feast of Dedication (Hanukkah):
While not one of the Torah-prescribed feasts, Jesus attended Hanukkah (the Feast of Dedication), showing His engagement with Jewish cultural practices that did not contradict God's commandments:
"At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon" (John 10:22-23).
4. Reconciling the So-Called “Contradiction”
There is no contradiction. Jesus upheld the commandments of God and participated in the feasts God ordained, as well as some cultural practices that aligned with His mission and did not violate Scripture. He rejected man-made traditions when they nullified God’s law but engaged with traditions that were consistent with His identity as the Messiah.
Your claim that Jesus avoided all "Jewish traditions" misunderstands His mission and actions. He was fully Jewish and lived within the covenant framework of the Old Testament, fulfilling the Law and the Prophets, as foretold in passages like Isaiah 53 and Deuteronomy 18:18-19.
Jesus' observance of the feasts shows His submission to the Law and His role as the fulfillment of God’s redemptive plan:
"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ" (Colossians 2:16-17).
Thus, Jesus' actions were perfectly aligned with God's commandments, and there is no contradiction in Him observing God-ordained feasts while rejecting human traditions that distorted His Father’s Word.
J.
Now Johann, I just showed you where your religious philosophy, "your gospel" if you will, preaches that the murder of Jesus "ends the hostility between sinners and God."
But I pointed out to you, not my words, but from the "Pauline epistles", that even years after the ascension of the Christ to His Father's Kingdom, to prepare a place for us, God's Wrath against the unrighteousness and ungodliness of man still exists, as letting sin reign in our mortal body, still brings death. That the death of Jesus DID NOT "end the hostility between sinners and God", as your gospel teaches.
Proving that you are using "human philosophy" to promote your religion, not Paul's Epistles, in the same exact way that you claim Pancho is doing. The only difference is that you "Come in Christ's Name" to promote your human philosophy, and Pancho comes in the name of another.
So given these undeniable truths, exposed by Paul's epistles, I would turn your own question towards your own self.
Johann
Well-known member
Incorrect-you may want try again.
The Scriptures explicitly state that Jesus' death did end the hostility between sinners and God for those who are in Christ:
"For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life" (Romans 5:10).
This passage highlights that before faith in Christ, humanity is hostile to God. However, Jesus' death reconciles us, bringing peace for believers. You deny this @Studyman?
"All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation" (2 Corinthians 5:18).
Reconciliation is not theoretical or partial; it is a finished work for those who trust in Christ.
"For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility" (Ephesians 2:14).
Here, Paul teaches that Jesus’ death broke down the hostility between humanity and God (and between Jews and Gentiles) through the cross.
2. God's Wrath Against Sin Remains for Unbelievers
While it is true that God’s wrath against sin remains for those who reject Christ, this does not negate the reconciliation available through Jesus:
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him" (John 3:36).
This verse clarifies that reconciliation through Jesus is available, but only those who believe in Him benefit from it.
3. Sin and Its Reign in Mortal Bodies
Your claim that "letting sin reign in our mortal body still brings death" is true, but it must be understood in its biblical context. For believers, Paul commands us to no longer let sin have dominion:
"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions" (Romans 6:12).
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23).
This shows that while sin brings death, believers are empowered by the Spirit to overcome sin because they have been reconciled and justified through Christ (Romans 8:1-2).
4. The Death of Jesus and the Gospel
The Gospel teaches that the death of Jesus ended the hostility between sinners and God for those who trust in Him:
"And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross" (Colossians 1:20).
Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was not partial; it was fully sufficient to make peace between God and those who believe.
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God" (1 Peter 3:18).
His death removes the barrier of sin and brings believers into fellowship with God.
So @Studyman
The death of Jesus did indeed end the hostility between sinners and God for all who believe in Him, as Scripture consistently teaches.
However, those who reject Christ remain under God’s wrath and outside the reconciliation provided through the cross.
To suggest that Jesus' death was insufficient for reconciliation misrepresents the clear teaching of the Bible and undermines the power and purpose of His atonement. Believers are called to trust in this finished work and live in the freedom and peace it provides.
Thanks.
I'll let you know if I need any assistance from you.
J.
It seems important to understand that the "Jewish culture" at that time, was led astray by a religious sect in charge of the Temple in Jerusalem, that "Persecuted the Church of God". In Paul's Epistles He speaks of them, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."
So it seems very important to establish the difference between legitimate practices "prescribed by the Law" which were not always "allowed within Jewish culture".
In todays religious sects and businesses, it is taught that the Pharisees, for example, were "Trying to earn Salvation by obeying God's Laws". This is an insidious falsehood that has caused "many" to do go astray as it contributes to another insidious falsehood that God's Law was a Yoke of Bondage HE placed on the necks of men who trusted them, implying that God lied to them when HE told them not only to obey Him, but that they could obey Him.
So Jesus lived by Every Word of His Father. He didn't live by "Jewish Culture" at that time, and because of that, they murdered Him.
this is truth Johann. These Feasts Jesus walked in were not Jewish Feasts at all. They were "Feasts of the Lord" which foreshadowed things that are yet to come, that deserve our respect and honor, in my view.
This is a bad translation. Passover is the Day before the First Day of Unleavened Bread. The First Day of Unleavened bread is a Sabbath. Passover was not a sabbath, but was the preparation day for the First Day of Unleavened bread which is a sabbath. This Spiritually signifies the death of the Passover Lamb before the journey out of Sin as it is the very beginning of the journey to Salvation, not the end.
And HE fulfilled the Role of the Unblemished Lamb, and changed the observance of the Passover.
Luke 22: 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
There are no Jewish Traditions commanded by God. These Feasts were called by God through Moses, "The Feasts of the Lord", Yes? The Jews, by your own admission, were Transgressing God's commandments by their own religious Traditions. They created the Talmud. Jesus most certainly understood the difference between God's commandments and the Traditions of men, would you not agree? And therefore "avoided all Jewish traditions", and walked instead, in the Commandments and Judgments of God. It is a deception to call God's Commandments and Judgments "Jewish Traditions". Rather, we should remember that God gave His Oracles to the Jews, therefore, Salvation is of the Jews.
This is true. Jesus was judged, persecuted, lied about and eventually murdered because HE walked in obedience to God's Laws, not the "commandments of men the Jews taught for doctrines", at least according to Scriptures. He truly didn't let anyone judge Him "in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days", Which are a shadow of things to come;
And Paul also warns in Col. 2: Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition "of men", after the rudiments "of the world", and not "after Christ".
There are still things that have Yet to be Fulfilled. We are still on the Journey, the Exodus from Sin. Jesus has Yet to return with His Reward " to give every man according as his work shall be."
There is still "The Last Great Day".
This is why Paul, and the Church of God continued to walk, "Even as Jesus Walked" years after HE ascended.
It might be prudent to also accept the truth about this world's high days, created in worship of an image of God in the likeness of man, and used to replace the Feasts of the Lord by the religious system of this world. They are a shadow of nothing as God through Jeremiah explains.
Jer. 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: 2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
Jesus speaks to the men who "Do Truth" in John 3.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds "may be made manifest", that they are wrought "in God". (And not man)
I agree 100%. Therefore it is Written:
1 John 2: 5 But whoso keepeth his word, "in him" verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that "saith" he abideth in him ought himself "also so to walk", even "as he walked".
Johann
Well-known member
With a few clarifications, you and I may come closer to seeing eye to eye, particularly on matters like the Talmud and the early writings of the Mishnah. And it’s important to approach these texts with discernment while aligning our understanding with Scripture. Jesus Himself addressed the oral traditions and their potential to mislead when they contradicted God’s Word:
"You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men" (Mark 7:8).
"Thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do" (Mark 7:13).
The early Mishnah and later Talmud are valuable for understanding Jewish traditions and cultural context, but they must always be weighed against the revealed Word of God. As Paul warned, "See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ" (Colossians 2:8).
By grounding ourselves in Scripture as the ultimate authority, we ensure that our understanding is shaped by God’s truth and not swayed by traditions or interpretations that deviate from His Word.
Later @Studyman-good post.
J.
Romans 5:10 doesn't make void the entire Chapter of Romans 6, or Paul's teaching about letting sin reign in our body, after we are reconciled to God. Or 1st Corinthians 10.
Israel, and the Stranger that sojourned with them, were also reconciled to God by the blood of the unblemished Lamb. As Paul teaches.
1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Why was this? It certainly wasn't because the Death of the Passover Lamb "ended the hostility between sinners and God".
Why are we required to repent of our sins from the heart? Why did Jesus say, "Now Go and Sin no more" lest a worse thing come upon you". "it is because the death of Christ did not "end the hostility between sinners and God"
And Paul was speaking directly to those who were in Christ in Romans 6 and in 1 Cor. 10.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
Why? "because the death of Christ did not "end the hostility between sinners and God"
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, Why? "because the death of Christ did not "end the hostility between sinners and God"
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Why? "because the death of Christ did not "end the hostility between sinners and God"
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Why? "because the death of Christ did not "end the hostility between sinners and God"
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Why? "because the death of Christ did not "end the hostility between sinners and God"
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written "for our admonition", upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him "that thinketh he standeth" take heed lest he fall. Why? "because the death of Christ did not "end the hostility between sinners and God".
2 Peter 3: 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, (Because of this) beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. Why? "because the death of Christ did not "end the hostility between sinners and God"
Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Why? "because the death of Christ did not "end the hostility between sinners and God"
Matt. 13: 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, "and them which do iniquity"; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Why? "because the death of Christ did not "end the hostility between sinners and God"
Ecc. 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring "every work into judgment", with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Why? "because the death of Christ did not "end the hostility between sinners and God"
Rom. 2: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Why? "because the death of Christ did not "end the hostility between sinners and God"
Matt. 7: 22 Many "will say to me" in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Why? "because the death of Christ did not "end the hostility between sinners and God"
It would be a falsehood to teach others that these Christians didn't believe in Jesus. Just as it is a falsehood to teach that "the death of Christ "ended the hostility between sinners and God".
I never said, suggested or even implied that the death of the Passover Lamb didn't reconcile men to God, causing the death angel to pass over them. I am simply pointing out the false gospel that the death of Christ "ended the hostility between sinners and God"
Why does God require that I "be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created "in righteousness and true holiness". It is "because the death of Christ did not "end the hostility between sinners and God"
Why did Paul instruct me to "put away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. It is "because the death of Christ "did not" "end the hostility between sinners and God"
I don't believe the Scriptures support or promote the popular gospel that Jesus came to "end the hostility between sinners and God" . I believe HE offered to God His Life, that I might repent and "Turn to God" and "Yield myself" a servant to obey God, and become a servant of God's Righteousness, as Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile. But the teaching that I am free to reject God's Laws and Judgments and create my own "in Christ's Name", because Jesus "ended the hostility between sinners and God" although a seductive religion, and popular in this world God placed me in, the Scriptures simply do not support this philosophy.
The Jesus "of the Bible" said believers are to repent, and "Live by" Every Word of God and "Keep the Commandments" and be perfect even as His Father in Heaven is perfect. Your gospel is seductive, and certainly popular, and "Many" walk this path. But to teach others that the death of Jesus "ended the hostility between sinners and God" is just simply not true, in my understanding of Scripture.
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Amen.
Johann
Well-known member
Actually i did. He promoted himself as equal with God but he was not a random man
Jesus while on earth followed Jewish Old testament customs given by God. Customs which were not always observed in the New testament
and new customs such as meeting on the first day of the week were added
He did not however partake of high days which had no scriptural backing
Not afraid at all, It is not clear where you are coming from or getting at
The New Testament effected changes in what is clean. Even Jesus while on earth taught it is not what goes into the body which defiles a man, but what comes out. Peter was commanded to eat things previously taught as unclean
i
To be noted The New Testament is not just the religious traditions of man (not saying you are claiming this)
There was a clear change to the law introduced by the New Testament
You cannot assume all Jewish customs were man made and not coming from God
When I spoke of Jewish customs I was speaking of old testament customs which were given by God. Jesus for example observed the passover
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Hogwash
You made a statement provide evidence for it
Never stated you did but you did mention the kindness of Pancho. It has no bearing at all on the issue of his salvation
So then, in your religion, Jesus created an image of God in the Likeness of Himself?
Wow.
So God gave Jesus "God's Customs" and Jesus followed them. But you said above that Jesus created an "image of God" in the likeness of Himself. That is clearly against "God's Customs". Can you please clarify your supposed "answer" to the question I asked?
This was also true in the Old Testament. God's Customs "that HE before ordained that men should walk in them", like Jesus did, were not always observed throughout Biblical History. It was common, according to Scriptures, for men, who professed to know God, to reject HIS Customs HE created for men to walk in, and choose instead to adopt the customs of various religions of the land that God placed them in.
The Jesus "of the Bible" said that in the judgment, there will be "Many" who call Him Lord, Lord, but reject God's customs and follow man's instruction instead. HE said HE doesn't know them, but most self-proclaimed "ministers of righteousness" do not believe Him.
Certainly, throughout the history, God's Customs were rejected by self-righteous men, just as the mainstream religious men of Jesus Time rejected them. The Jesus "of the Bible" teaches me this.
Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
I'm sure that Jesus and the Prophets, and God's People as defined in Scriptures, met with each other at different times of the week. There was no "Custom" from God, His Son who HE sent to us, or any of His Prophets or Disciples, telling men they could only meet on the first day of the week.
Jesus and Paul did warn specifically about men who "Transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ, and call Jesus Lord, Lord, who are deceivers. If you hear one of these "many", who preach in Jesus Name, telling you that God's Custom required that men only meet with each other on the first day of the week, separate yourself from this person because they are a deceiver. God never made such a custom, and Jesus never walked in it.
This is also true. Jesus would never reject the "Feasts of the Lord" and observe manmade high days instead.
This is a deception. Peter had a vision to teach him about men that God has forgiven/cleansed. God didn't command Peter to disobey Him. Even a child knows you can't eat a vision. Even if Peter would have rejected the customs of God and eaten what the Father of the Lord's Christ had already told him was unclean, it was still only a vision. Buty in the vision Peter didn't turn from the "obedience of Christ" even in the vision. And when God showed him the meaning of the vision, He didn't say, "Why didn't you eat the unclean" did He? Instead, HE told Peter what the vision was about, and that not to call any man unclean that God has cleansed. If Peter had understood Moses and the Prophets, he would have already known that even the Non-Jew, who turns to the Lord, is cleansed. Maggots, slugs, swine's flesh as still clean for food Tom.
Jesus pointed out to us, that it isn't the harlot, or the pig, or the maggot or the Money that defiles you. It's your lust to rebel against God and His judgments and walk in your own, that comes from within.
But because religious men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, hate His Customs that Jesus walked in, they must promote lies about the Scriptures, so that they can live, eat, worship, and pray after the imagination of their own heart, and not after the instructions of the Christ. And the religious sects and businesses of this world promote this lifestyle, in order to grow their religious business. God prophesies about this through Jeremiah.
Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not "out of the mouth of the LORD".
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one "that walketh after the imagination of his own heart", No evil shall come upon you.
Jesus warns about this many times throughout His Life. He teaches the Truth about how to overcome these evil deceptions.
Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by "every word" that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
He said "Many" would call Him their Lord, but refuse to do what HE says. I strive with all my heart not to be "Like unto them" as the Jesus "of the bible" instructs me in Matthew 6.
The point is, the mainstream preachers of New Testament time, who professed to know God, were not promoting God's Commandments and judgments, rather, they were promoting the Commandments of men for doctrines. Whereas Jesus, and all the examples of Faithful man given us in the Holy Scriptures, (Zacharias, Elizbeth, Simeon, Anna the Disciples etc., to name just a few) walked in God's Commandments, (you call Customs)
Yes, the Law and Prophets, which will be in force as long as heaven and earth are here, according to Jesus, all hang on the 2 greatest Commandments.
Of course not. And it is a deceiving statement really, to call God's Laws "Jewish Customs". Jesus didn't. Moses didn't. Paul didn't. But you do. Kenneth Copeland does, the Pope does. I have come to know that the reason why this world's "ministers of righteousness" call God's Laws "Jewish Customs" is to justify their rejection of God's Laws as "only written for Jews" making God a respecter of persons.
But religion is precious and more important to many, than being a "doers" of Jesus sayings, instead of a hearer only. So these discussions most always end in defense of the religion, and religious tradition, and not the truth of Scripture.
I know exactly what you mean, and why you said it. And Paul and the Church of God also observed Passover, Feast of Unleavened bread, and Pentecost, and all the "Feasts of the Lord". Not because they were Jewish Traditions, as the Pope and his Protestant daughters preach, but because they are "good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them". And this for our own wellbeing.
I simply advocate for trusting what is actually written. Not just a word here or there, but "Every Inspired Word of God" that the Jesus "of the bible" said HE was sent to give us.
No he was in fact the image of the living god
What I stated is Jesus presented himself as the image of God which he in fact was
And that vision had Peter act contrary to what was old testament law
Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean
The Holy Bible: King James Version (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version.; Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ac 10:12–14.
All manner of four-footed beasts, &c.] Every species of quadrupeds, whether wild or domestic; all reptiles, and all fowls. Consequently, both the clean and unclean were present in this visionary representation: those that the Jewish law allowed to be sacrificed to God, or proper for food; as well as those which that law had prohibited in both cases: such as the beasts that do not chew the cud; fish which have no scales; fowls of prey, and such others as are specified in Lev. 11
Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 5, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 761.
The fact is Peter rejected the idea until admonished by God
other changes to dietary laws can be seen in the New Testament
I keep wondering what is your point in all these questions?
He was truly a perfect man, even as His Father in Heaven is perfect. And He truly Lived by "Every Word" which proceeds from the mouth of His God and my God. But you still didn't answer the question I asked, and you know it. ""Would or did Jesus ever create, promote or partake in an image of God in the likeness of anything, even some random man?"
Who did HE present Himself to? Himself? Are you saying HE worshipped Himself? That HE built statutes of Himself and told people, "this is your god"?
How fascinating this world's religions are, and how they work so hard to make Jesus out to be a transgressor of His Father's Laws.
Again, another deception. The "vision" didn't make Peter act contrary to the Laws of the God and Father of the Lord's Christ. And God used the Vision to direct Peter back to obedience of His Law that Peter was ignoring.
"But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God."
And God clearly tells you that the vision wasn't about eating maggots or slugs or swine's flesh, obviously, because God has already made His Judgment concerning these things. But the vision was about non-Jews who "Yielded themselves" servants to obey God, like Cornelious did.
If Peter didn't partake of that which is Unclean, why then would he refuse to fellowship with Cornelious, who had been accepted by God and washed of his uncleanness?
But like so many who "Call Jesus Lord, Lord, but do not what HE says," you don't want to talk about what is actually written, rather, your entire mission here is to justify your religion, and its traditions which cause those who adopt them to Transgress God's Laws. Neither Jesus, nor ANY the examples of Faith in the Bible, walked in this manner. Jesus warned you of men who walk in this manner, but you don't believe in Him. You seem to believe in the "image" of god this world's religions have created.
You don't have to be held captive by your adopted religion Tom. If you would follow the instruction of the Jesus "of the Bible" and "SEEK" God's Righteousness, as Jesus tells you to "DO", you would know what to drink, what to eat, because His Father and my Father directs us in these matters knowing, as even earthy fathers know, that children have need of these things. Just as you do for your children, when they were young and didn't know the difference between what is clean and what is unclean.
Not true, but you are here to justify yourself, so the truth of scriptures may not matter. Peter didn't eat, because what was offered in the vision was unclean. God told him later that the vision wasn't about food at all, but to accept God's Word here as truth, would expose a tradition of disobedience. As the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches, "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
You have your adopted religious philosopher, "Adam Clarke" and you follow his instruction. I advocate believing in the Jesus "of the Bible" and living by God's Word as HE commands, not the religious opinion of Adam Clark. But you are free to "Yield yourself" a servant to obey whoever you wish.
Isn't it fascinating that you reserve the right as a father of your own children to direct them in what is food and what is not food. But you deny the One True God that Jesus said was your Father, the same right even when HE should be the ONE to know more than any human father.
He rejected the idea that non-Jews can be cleansed by God, same a Jews.
No! Disobedience, indifference, rebellion and disrespect for God comes from within a man's heart. It isn't the maggot, slug or swine's flesh that defiles a man. It's man's stubborn refusal to "Yield themself" to God, as all the Scriptures teach, that Jesus taught, that Paul taught. Perhaps the Pope or Adam Clark changed God's Judgments in order for them to Justify their lust for disobedience. But there is not one place in the Bible where God rescinded His Judgment that maggots, slugs and swine's flesh have a purpose on earth, but that purpose is not for food. As Paul said, you are a servant to whomever you yield yourself a servant to obey. "Know ye not" these things?
No you don't. You know full well what my point is. You are only here to justify your adopted religious sect, and the philosophies and traditions they promote. My point is "what if Jesus and His Father are not the deceivers of this world. What if the deceivers the religious men that Jesus and His Father warned about, who "profess to know God", who "call His Son Jesus, Lord, Lord" but are disobedient and refuse to abide by His Commandments and Judgments. So much so that Jesus instructed me to "Come out of her My people", and "Be therefore not like unto them".
Surely, we should consider these things. Or not, it's the choice of all men.
Seriously?
To the Jews, that is why they wanted to stone him
Lets see
Acts 10:9–14 (KJV 1900) — 9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Unclean food
Leviticus 11:2–47 (LEB) — 2 “Speak to the Israelites, saying, ‘These are the animals that you may eat from all the animals that are on the land: 3 Any among the animals that has a divided hoof and has a split cleft in the hoof and that chews cud, such you may eat. 4 However, these you may not eat from those that chew the cud and from those that have a divided hoof: the camel, because it is a chewer of cud but it does not have a hoof that is divided—it is unclean for you; 5 and the coney, because it is a chewer of cud but it does not have a hoof that is divided—it is unclean for you; 6 and the hare, because it is a chewer of cud but it does not have a hoof that is divided—it is unclean for you; 7 and the pig, because it has a divided hoof and has a split cleft in the hoof but it does not chew cud—it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat from their meat, and you must not touch their dead body—they are unclean for you. 9 “ ‘These you may eat from all that are in the water: any in the water that has a fin and scales, whether in the seas or in the streams—such you may eat. 10 But any that does not have a fin and scales, whether in the seas or in the streams, among all the water’s swarmers among all the living creatures that are in the water—they are a detestable thing to you. 11 And they shall be detestable to you; you must not eat from their meat, and you must detest their dead body. 12 Any that does not have a fin and scales in the water—it is a detestable thing to you. 13 “ ‘And these you must detest from the birds; they must not be eaten—they are detestable: the eagle and the vulture and the short-toed eagle, 14 and the red kite and the black kite according to its kind, 15 every crow according to its kind, 16 and the ostrich and the short-eared owl and the seagull and the hawk according to its kind, 17 and the little owl and the cormorant and the great owl, 18 and the barn owl and the desert owl and the carrion vulture, 19 and the stork, the heron according to its kind and the hoopoe and the bat. 20 “ ‘Any winged insect that walks on all fours is detestable to you. 21 Only this may you eat from any of the winged insects that walk on all fours—that which has jointed legs above its feet for leaping upon the land. 22 From these you may eat the locust according to its kind and the bald locust according to its kind and the cricket according to its kind and the grasshopper according to its kind. 23 But any other winged insect that has four legs is detestable to you. 24 And by these you shall become unclean—anyone who touches their dead body shall become unclean until the evening, 25 and anyone who carries their dead body must wash his garments, and he shall be unclean until the evening. 26 “ ‘With regard to any animal that has a divided hoof but does not split the hoof, or does not have a cud for chewing—they are unclean for you; anyone who touches them shall become unclean. 27 And anything that walks upon its paws among any of the animals that walks on all fours—they are unclean for you; anyone who touches their dead body shall become unclean until the evening, 28 and the one who carries their dead body must wash his garments, and he shall be unclean until the evening—they are unclean for you. 29 “ ‘And these are the unclean for you among the swarmers that swarm on the land: the weasel and the mouse and the thorn-tailed lizard according to its kind, 30 and the gecko and the land crocodile and the lizard and the sand lizard and the chameleon. 31 These are the unclean for you among all the swarmers; anyone who touches them at their death shall become unclean until the evening. 32 And anything on which one of them falls at their death shall become unclean: any object of wood or garment or skin or sackcloth—any object that has performed work—must be placed in water, and it shall be unclean until the evening, and then it shall be clean. 33 And any clay vessel into which one of them falls, all that is in it shall become unclean, and you must break it. 34 Any of the food that could be eaten on which water from such a vessel comes shall become unclean, and any liquid that could be drunk in any such vessel shall become unclean. 35 And anything on which one of their dead bodies falls shall become unclean: an oven or a stove must be broken—they are unclean and shall be unclean for you. 36 Surely a spring or a cistern collecting water shall be clean, but that which touches their dead body shall become unclean. 37 And when one of their dead bodies falls on any seed for sowing, it is clean. 38 But when water is put on the seed and one of their dead bodies falls on it, it is unclean for you. 39 “ ‘And when one of the animals dies that is for you to eat, the one who touches its dead body shall become unclean until the evening. 40 And the one who eats some of its dead body must wash his garments, and he shall be unclean until the evening; and the one who carries its dead body must wash his garments, and he shall be unclean until the evening. 41 “ ‘And any swarmer that swarms on the land is detestable; it must not be eaten. 42 You must not eat anything that moves upon its belly or that walks on all fours, even any with numerous feet belonging to any swarmer that swarms on the land, because they are detestable. 43 You must not defile yourselves with any swarmer that swarms, and you must not make yourselves unclean by them and so be made unclean by them, 44 because I am Yahweh your God, and you must keep yourselves sanctified, so that you shall be holy, because I am holy. And you must not make yourselves unclean with any swarmer that moves along on the land, 45 because I am Yahweh, who brought you up from the land of Egypt to be for you as God. Thus you shall be holy, because I am holy. 46 “ ‘This is the regulation of the animals and the birds and all living creatures that move along in the water and concerning all the creatures that swarm on the land, 47 to distinguish between the unclean and the clean and between the animal that is to be eaten and the animal that must not be eaten.’ ”
it is truly puzzling why you think this statement
What I stated is Jesus presented himself as the image of God which he in fact was
amounts to making Jesus a transgressor
How fascinating this world's religions are, and how they work so hard to make Jesus out to be a transgressor of His Father's Laws.
end pt1
Your sentence seems contradictory
In the first half of it, you state
"If Peter didn't partake of that which is Unclean"
You suggest Peter partook of the unclean
but then you have him refusing to partake of the unclean by fellowship with Cornelius until informed by God he was clean
I think you need to get a grip on yourself. You obviously have an agenda
Why don't you just come out and say what it is then we can discuss it
Is your problem with the trinity? This is the issue of the thread
Justification by faith?
the fact salvation is a gift not something earned?
what?
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