The misuse and abuse of John 17:3 by Unitarians to promote Unitarianism.

[Johann]

Of course it is the view Jesus had about forgiveness and salvation. He explained it several times in unequivocal terms and examples.
Haven’t you reflected on the parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee? The parable of the prodigal son? The parable of the king who forgwve his subject’s debt? Havent you reflected on the words of the Lord’s prayer and the Sermon of the Mountain?
On the story of the woman who washed and anointed his feet? On the crippled man whose sins sere forgiven? On the prayer of intercession of Jesus for the Roman soldiers?

Jesus was bleeding and sweating in his way to Calvary for having sustained the pure, naive view of forgiveness that you had as a child.

Isa 53:1 Who has believed our message,
and to whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?
Isa 53:2 For [Or “And”] he went [Or “grew”] up like a shoot before him,
and like a root from dry ground.
He had no form and no majesty that [Or “and”] we should see him,
and no appearance that [Or “and”] we should take pleasure in him.
Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of suffering, and acquainted with [Or “knowledgeable of”] sickness,
and like one from whom others hide their faces, [Literally “hiding of face from him”] he was despised,
and we did not hold him in high regard.
Isa 53:4 However, he was the one who lifted up our sicknesses,
and he carried our pain,
yet [Or “and”] we ourselves assumed him stricken,
struck down by God and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But [Or “And”] he was pierced [Or “wounded”] because of our transgressions,
crushed because of our iniquities;
the chastisement for [Or “of”] our peace [Or “healing”] was upon him,
and by his wounds [Hebrew “wound”] we were healed. [Literally “it was healed for us”]
Isa 53:6 All of us have wandered about like sheep;
we each have turned to his own way;
and Yahweh let fall on him
the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet [Or “and”] he did not open his mouth;
he was brought like a lamb to the slaughter,
and like a sheep is dumb before its shearers,
so [Or “and”] he did not open his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken by restraint of justice,
and who concerned himself with his generation?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
he received a blow because of the transgression of my people.
Isa 53:9 He made [Or “gave”] his grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet [Or “And”] Yahweh was pleased to crush him;
he made him sick. [Literally “he made sick”]
If she [Or “you”] places [Or “makes”] his life a guilt offering, [Or “compensation”]
he will see offspring.
He will prolong days,
and the will of Yahweh will succeed in his hand.
Isa 53:11 From the trouble of his life [Or “soul”] he will see; [Dead Sea Scrolls add “light”]
he will be satisfied.
In his knowledge, the righteous one , my servant, shall declare many righteous, [Or “right”]
and he is the one who will bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore, I will divide to him a portion among the many, [Or “great”]
and with the strong ones he will divide bounty,
because [Literally “Instead of that”] he poured his life out to death
and was counted with the transgressors;
and [Or “yet”] he was the one who bore the sin of many
and will intercede for the transgressors.

Literal-or not? If not literal, which non-literal sources are you using?
The denial of the physical resurrection of Jesus is a salvific issue, according to the clear teaching of Scripture. The bodily resurrection of Jesus is central to the gospel and foundational to Christian faith. The New Testament repeatedly affirms the necessity of believing in Jesus’ physical resurrection for salvation.

1. The Gospel Includes the Physical Resurrection

1 Corinthians 15:3-4:
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures."

The physical resurrection is presented as an essential component of the gospel message.

It is not merely symbolic or spiritual but rooted in the literal, historical reality of Jesus’ bodily resurrection. To deny this is to deny the gospel itself.

2. The Importance of the Resurrection for Salvation

Romans 10:9:
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

The resurrection here is specifically tied to the saving faith required for salvation. The Greek verb ἤγειρεν (ēgeiren) is in the aorist tense, emphasizing the historical act of God physically raising Jesus from the dead.

This belief is not optional-it is integral to salvation.

3. The Resurrection Validates Jesus' Deity and His Work
Romans 1:4:
"And was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord."

The resurrection is the ultimate validation of Jesus’ identity as the Son of God.

Without the resurrection, His claims to deity and His atoning work are undermined. A denial of the resurrection questions the very authority of Christ.

4. Paul’s Warning About Denying the Resurrection

1 Corinthians 15:12-17:
"Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God... And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins."

Paul emphatically ties the resurrection to the efficacy of salvation.

Without the physical resurrection, faith becomes void, and the believer remains in sin. This passage makes it clear that belief in the resurrection is non-negotiable.

5. The Physical Resurrection as Fulfillment of Prophecy

Jesus repeatedly foretold His death and bodily resurrection, as seen in passages like Matthew 16:21, Mark 8:31, and Luke 24:6-7. To deny the physical resurrection is to call into question the truthfulness of Jesus’ words and the fulfillment of prophecy.

Additionally, the resurrection fulfills Old Testament prophecies, such as Psalm 16:10, which states, "For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption." Peter directly applies this verse to Jesus’ physical resurrection in Acts 2:24-32.

6. Salvation Requires Faith in the True Christ
The denial of Jesus’ bodily resurrection introduces a different Jesus, not the one revealed in Scripture.

This aligns with Paul's warning in 2 Corinthians 11:4, where he speaks of those who accept “another Jesus” and a different gospel.

A spiritualized, non-physical resurrection contradicts the biblical portrayal of Jesus and compromises His role as Savior.

Belief in the physical resurrection of Jesus is absolutely a salvific issue. It is not a peripheral doctrine but a core tenet of the faith. Without the resurrection, the gospel is incomplete, salvation is ineffective, and Jesus’ identity as the risen Lord is undermined. A person who denies the bodily resurrection of Jesus must reconsider their understanding of the gospel and the true nature of Christ, as the Jesus they are describing is not the biblical Jesus who offers salvation.

Dear readers, please help confirm to @Pancho Frijoles the seriousness of denying the core tenets of the Christian faith, particularly the essential truths that form the foundation of salvation.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This is error-
The Context of John 3:3-8: A Literal Transformation, Not Mere Symbolism

John 3:3
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again (γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν, gennēthē anōthen), he cannot see the kingdom of God."

The Greek word ἄνωθεν (anōthen) means both "again" and "from above," implying a spiritual rebirth initiated by God. This dual meaning suggests a deeper theological reality, not just a metaphor for moral or behavioral change.

Jesus uses γεννηθῇ (gennēthē), a verb for literal birth or begetting. The aorist passive subjunctive form emphasizes an action performed upon the individual by an external agent-God. This rebirth is a transformative event, not a figurative concept of repentance alone.

2. The Role of Water and Spirit in Salvation

John 3:5
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit (ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ Πνεύματος, ex hydatos kai Pneumatos), he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

The conjunction καί (kai) ("and") joins ὕδατος ("water") and Πνεύματος ("Spirit") in a single concept, suggesting that both are integral to the new birth. This rules out purely metaphorical interpretations.

The mention of water likely alludes to baptism, a consistent theme in the New Testament (cf. Acts 2:38, Titus 3:5). The grammatical structure and context do not support reducing "water" to mere metaphorical language, especially in light of John 1:33, where the Spirit and water are linked in Jesus' baptism.

3. The Spirit as the Agent of Regeneration

John 3:6-8
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit (ἐκ τοῦ Πνεύματος, ek tou Pneumatos) is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind (πνεῦμα, pneuma) blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

The word πνεῦμα (pneuma) means both "spirit" and "wind." Jesus deliberately uses this double meaning to highlight the invisible yet powerful work of the Holy Spirit. The analogy to wind does not reduce the Spirit's work to metaphor but emphasizes its mysterious and sovereign nature.

The preposition ἐκ (ek) ("of") denotes origin or source, showing that the new birth is entirely a work of the Holy Spirit, not a metaphorical self-effort.

4. Jesus’ Use of Literal and Spiritual Realities

While Jesus often employs metaphorical language, His discussion with Nicodemus in John 3 is rooted in literal spiritual truths.

This is evident from Nicodemus’ confusion in John 3:4, where he interprets Jesus' statement about being "born again" in purely physical terms. Jesus’ clarification in verses 5-8 shifts the focus to the spiritual but does not negate the literal transformation required by God’s Spirit.

Greek Linguistic Precision:
Words like γεννάω (to beget), ὕδωρ (water), and πνεῦμα (spirit/wind) carry theological weight in this context. Jesus uses them consistently throughout the discourse to refer to the divine work of regeneration, not mere allegories for moral improvement.

5. The Broader Biblical Context

Titus 3:5:
"He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration (λουτροῦ παλιγγενεσίας, loutrou palingenesias) and renewal of the Holy Spirit."

The phrase λουτροῦ παλιγγενεσίας ("washing of regeneration") closely parallels "born of water and the Spirit" in John 3:5, reinforcing the connection between water, Spirit, and salvation.

Ezekiel 36:25-27:
Jesus’ language echoes this Old Testament prophecy:
"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean... I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you... and cause you to walk in my statutes."

Ezekiel's reference to water and Spirit reflects God's promise of internal transformation, fulfilled in the new birth Jesus describes.

The Greek text of John 3:3-8, combined with its context and the broader biblical witness, affirms that Jesus was not merely teaching repentance or a figurative "newness of life" but describing a literal, divine transformation through the work of the Holy Spirit.

The precise grammar and theological consistency of terms like γεννάω, ὕδωρ, and πνεῦμα point to regeneration as an essential and objective work of God in salvation. To reduce this to metaphorical teaching undermines the depth and coherence of the Gospel message.

To be consistent with your Bahá'í faith, you must reinterpret and allegorize the plain, literal text of D'varim as it stands written in its grammatical and historical context-particularly in its perfect tense.

This approach would require you to deny or spiritualize straightforward statements that were clearly intended to be understood literally by their original audience. Such reinterpretation undermines the text's original meaning and replaces it with external theological presuppositions alien to the Scripture's intended message.

Thanks

J.

I strongly disagree. The grammatical and lexical analysis of the Greek text do support the metaphorical character of water, being born again, wind and kingdom. Such character is driven ultimately by philology, not linguistics.

If your religion teaches that man is saved by performimg a ritual in water, please run away. Flee. Quit such religion, because it is superstition.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Isa 53…

Literal-or not?

J.

Not literal.
I’m ready to provide the evidences to anyone interested.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You openly confess that you are not a Christian and consistently redefine and reinterpret the Scriptures,

Some pastors and theologians have systematically redefined and reinterpreted the Scriptures, making Christianism a shadow of what Christ really taught in the beginning. I am not a Christian because I prefer Christ.

rejecting the literal resurrection of the Messiah. This compels me to ask, "Which Jesus are you referring to?"

J.

The Jesus who inspires me to love you. That Jesus, and no other.

 

[Johann]

Some pastors and theologians have systematically redefined and reinterpreted the Scriptures, making Christianism a shadow of what Christ really taught in the beginning. I am not a Christian because I prefer Christ.

--and Muhammad and--here's why I don't believe you.

Symbolic and Allegorical Interpretation of Scripture
Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, frequently reinterpreted biblical texts in a symbolic or allegorical way. For instance, He described terms like "heaven," "earth," "judgment," and "resurrection" as metaphorical, applying them to spiritual realities rather than physical events.

In Kitáb-i-Íqán ("The Book of Certitude"), Bahá'u'lláh explains that many biblical prophecies, such as the second coming of Christ or the resurrection of the dead, should not be understood literally but symbolically.

He writes:
"Know of a certainty that in every Dispensation the light of Divine Revelation hath been vouchsafed unto men in direct proportion to their spiritual capacity. Consider the sun. How feeble its rays the moment it appeareth above the horizon! How gradually its warmth and potency increase as it approacheth its zenith, enabling all created things to adapt themselves to the growing intensity of its light." (Part 1)

This allegory reinterprets divine manifestations (like Christ) as progressive revelations rather than literal events.

2. Non-Literal Views on Key Christian Doctrines

Bahá'í teachings reinterpret foundational Christian doctrines such as the physical resurrection, the virgin birth, and the second coming of Christ.

For example:
The resurrection of Jesus is viewed as a metaphor for the continued influence of His teachings and their revival after His death.

The second coming of Christ is interpreted as the appearance of a new manifestation of God, such as Bahá'u'lláh.

3. Scripture as Progressive Revelation

The Bahá'í faith holds that all religious scriptures, including the Bible, must be read in the context of progressive revelation. According to this view, religious texts reflect the spiritual and intellectual capacity of the time and are therefore subject to reinterpretation as humanity matures.

Bahá'í interpretations often spiritualize physical events and commandments, such as miracles or apocalyptic imagery, to align them with their belief in an evolving divine plan.

4. Emphasis on the "Spirit" Over the "Letter" of the Text

Bahá'í writings discourage a literalist approach to any scripture, including the Bible, suggesting that the "spirit" of the text is more important than its "letter."

For example, `Abdu’l-Bahá, Bahá'u'lláh's son and successor, stated:

"By the terms ‘heaven’ and ‘earth’ mentioned in the sacred scriptures is meant the phenomenal and the spiritual world. The individual believer must overcome the natural limitations of his human nature and rise into the world of the spirit, becoming free from the bondage of the material plane." (Some Answered Questions, Chapter 11)

5. The Role of Interpretation

Bahá'í leaders claim that the literal interpretation of Scripture often leads to division and error.

Instead, they advocate for understanding the "inner meanings" of texts, which they believe are revealed progressively by God’s chosen messengers.

In Kitáb-i-Íqán, Bahá'u'lláh explains that failure to interpret the Bible symbolically led to misunderstandings of Christ’s mission and rejection of subsequent messengers.

Examples in Practice
The Return of Christ: Bahá'ís teach that biblical prophecies of Christ’s return are fulfilled not by Jesus’ physical return but by Bahá'u'lláh, who claimed to bring a new revelation.
The Resurrection: The resurrection of Jesus is interpreted metaphorically, symbolizing the revival of His teachings and the spiritual transformation of His followers, rather than His physical body rising from the dead.

This is error @Pancho Frijoles.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

--and Muhammad and--here's why I don't believe you.

Accepting Jesus does not imply rejecting Moses.
Indeed, many people came to know Moses though Christ.
After 20 years of atheism I came back to Jesus through Bahaullah.

Symbolic and Allegorical Interpretation of Scripture
Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, frequently reinterpreted biblical texts in a symbolic or allegorical way. For instance, He described terms like "heaven," "earth," "judgment," and "resurrection" as metaphorical, applying them to spiritual realities rather than physical events.

That’s right.

In Kitáb-i-Íqán ("The Book of Certitude"), Bahá'u'lláh explains that many biblical prophecies, such as the second coming of Christ or the resurrection of the dead, should not be understood literally but symbolically.

Yes, that’s an accurate description.

2. Non-Literal Views on Key Christian Doctrines

Bahá'í teachings reinterpret foundational Christian doctrines such as the physical resurrection, the virgin birth, and the second coming of Christ.

For example:
The resurrection of Jesus is viewed as a metaphor for the continued influence of His teachings and their revival after His death.

The second coming of Christ is interpreted as the appearance of a new manifestation of God, such as Bahá'u'lláh.

Correct.

3. Scripture as Progressive Revelation

The Bahá'í faith holds that all religious scriptures, including the Bible, must be read in the context of progressive revelation. According to this view, religious texts reflect the spiritual and intellectual capacity of the time and are therefore subject to reinterpretation as humanity matures.

Bahá'í interpretations often spiritualize physical events and commandments, such as miracles or apocalyptic imagery, to align them with their belief in an evolving divine plan.

Yes, that’s true.

4. Emphasis on the "Spirit" Over the "Letter" of the Text

Bahá'í writings discourage a literalist approach to any scripture, including the Bible, suggesting that the "spirit" of the text is more important than its "letter."

That’s also correct.

For example, `Abdu’l-Bahá, Bahá'u'lláh's son and successor, stated:

"By the terms ‘heaven’ and ‘earth’ mentioned in the sacred scriptures is meant the phenomenal and the spiritual world. The individual believer must overcome the natural limitations of his human nature and rise into the world of the spirit, becoming free from the bondage of the material plane." (Some Answered Questions, Chapter 11)

5. The Role of Interpretation

Bahá'í leaders claim that the literal interpretation of Scripture often leads to division and error.

Instead, they advocate for understanding the "inner meanings" of texts, which they believe are revealed progressively by God’s chosen messengers.

Yes, that’s what we believe.

In Kitáb-i-Íqán, Bahá'u'lláh explains that failure to interpret the Bible symbolically led to misunderstandings of Christ’s mission and rejection of subsequent messengers.

Examples in Practice
The Return of Christ: Bahá'ís teach that biblical prophecies of Christ’s return are fulfilled not by Jesus’ physical return but by Bahá'u'lláh, who claimed to bring a new revelation.
The Resurrection: The resurrection of Jesus is interpreted metaphorically, symbolizing the revival of His teachings and the spiritual transformation of His followers, rather than His physical body rising from the dead.

That’s also a good description of what se believe.

This is error @Pancho Frijoles.

There is a thread that our Admninistrator opened to discuss the Bahai Faith.

 

[Johann]

That’s right.

Yes, that’s an accurate description.

Correct.

Yes, that’s true.

That’s also correct.

Yes, that’s what we believe.

That’s also a good description of what se believe.

There is a thread that our Admninistrator opened to discuss the Bahai Faith.

The issue, as I see it, is that discussions about the Bahá'í faith should be encouraged but also brought under the scrutiny of God’s Word. Is it in line with the truth of Scripture? If not-and as I have shown, it is certainly not compatible with biblical teachings-it should be rejected after careful examination.

The core doctrines of Christianity, as clearly revealed in the Scriptures, include the virgin birth, the physical resurrection, and the literal second coming of Jesus Christ. These are not just symbolic or metaphorical truths; they are foundational to our faith. As it stands written:

Isaiah 7:14 prophesies the virgin birth: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”

1 Corinthians 15:17 affirms the necessity of the literal resurrection: “And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.”

Acts 1:11 speaks of the second coming: “Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Any belief or teaching contrary to these core truths about Yeshua (Jesus) is pushing a different gospel, which Paul strongly warns against.

Galatians 1:8-9: “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse.”

These doctrines are non-negotiable. They form the foundation of the Christian faith as revealed in the Scriptures. Any deviation from this, no matter the origin, leads away from the truth and should be discarded after it has been thoroughly scrutinized against the written Word of God.

Shalom.

J.

 

[civic]

I have found your characterization of his posts an inaccurate description. To say he "rarely" quoted scripture is simply not true. In this thread alone, #51, #70, #72, #88 he quotes scripture and invites an honest discussion about them.

I don't agree with his adopted religious sect, but I also don't believe a man should call Jesus their Lord, but refuse to be a doer of His sayings, choosing instead to transgress God's Judgments and Commandments by their own manmade religious traditions and philosophies practiced "In His Name". I'm not sure which is worse, a man calling himself a "Christian" while rejecting God's Commandments and Judgments contrary to Jesus' Teaching. Or calling himself a Bali's while believing and walking in the Commandments and judgments of God that Jesus walked in.

As Jesus Himself said,

John 10: 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; "because I said", I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.



I don't see that HE denies the power of the Scriptures, seeing he quotes and believes what is written, same as you claim. I think you are upset with him, because he doesn't recognize or accept the religious philosophies "you" have adopted and are promoting, nor does he recognize your authority that you claim over him, to judge him. In the same way Civic doesn't recognize or accept the religious philosophies of Calvinism, and Calvinist don't recognize the religious sect Civic has adopted, or his authority to judge them that he is promoting.

For me, the Jesus "of the Bible" tells me who to be more concerned about being deceived by. And HE is clear about this in the scriptures. It is those who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who "Transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ, who "Come in His Name" teaching that HE, Jesus, IS the Messiah, that I am to "Take heed" of. I believe Jesus should be the ONE who knows if anybody does. Pancho is none of these things, and doesn't claim to be any of these things.

But many do!



You have completely ignored everything I wrote in my post, including the Scriptures I referenced therein. Why would you do that? Pancho doesn't do that. He is eager and willing to have a kind and respectful discussion about the Scriptures, and he is met with rudeness, insults, and seldom with honest answers to his question posed to those on this forum who claim to be the wisdom of the wise. How is this any different than poor Anna, a poor widow who would most assuredly be mocked by the Priests and scribes of her day for her understanding of God and His Salvation, proven superior to the Gamaliel's, Priests and scribes of that time.

Surely it isn't a sin to consider all these writing as truth.



Whose "Divine Truth"? The Popes? Wesley's"? Armenians? Kenneth Copeland? John Calvin? Russell? Shammai? Hillel? Baháʼu'lláh?

You believe your teachers are superior to Pancho's. So do Calvinists. So does Civic. And yet you all have adopted this world's religious sects and businesses as your own. Jesus told you who to pray to, and who to worship, and even how to pray and who to "Yield yourself" a servant to obey. And yet you reject His Own Teaching concerning all these things in order to preserve your own adopted religious philosophy.

So how are you more righteous that he? How are you wiser than he?

Why not believe and then live by (be doers) of "Every Word" of God as the Jesus "of the Bible" did and instructs to do? Why not believe ALL of Jesus' Words, including who to worship, and how to pray, and who to pray for, and how not to be a hypocrite?

And what if the religious masses I am surrounded by refuse to do so? Didn't the same thing happen to Caleb? Was his story not given to me for examples, for my own admonition?



Duet 18: 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, "like unto me"; unto him ye shall hearken;

John 5: 46 For "had ye believed Moses", ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye "believe not his writings", "how shall ye believe" my words?

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

What is the difference between you and Pancho? You call Jesus "God" and Pancho calls Him "the Son of God".





I have yet to meet even ONE self-professing Christian from literally hundreds of different religious sects and businesses that doesn't claim to be
"sealed with the Holy Spirit truly belong to Him and the Father.". I can walk into, on any Sunday morning, literally any one of thousands of manmade shrines of worship from any numbers of different religious sects and businesses who call Jesus Lord, Lord, and be guaranteed by the preacher therein, who has transformed himself into an Apostle of Christ, that I am "sealed with the Holy Spirit truly belong to Him and the Father." Right after they sing praises and pray to Jesus with their windows open and their bells ringing for all men to hear.

Is that the Church of God Jesus presides over? Or did HE tell me not to be like unto them?

Will you answer my questions?



There is NO GOOD WORKS, without God. We can't even know what a good work is, without God. It makes zero sense to say, "good Works "Alone" cannot save you". It is a spiritual impossibility to have or do "Good Works" without God who is the sole creator and definer of them. As Paul also teaches the Ephesians.

Eph. 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of (Mans) works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his (God the Father's) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto "good works", "which God" (Not Man) hath "before ordained" that we should walk in them.

Jesus said that we are "Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness". Why, to ignore them? Reject them? Or to "Walk in them"?

As it is also written.

1 John 2: 7 Little children, let no man "deceive you": he that doethrighteousness "is righteous", even as he is righteous.

Don't deceive yourself my friend. There are no Good Works that exist, apart from God. Jesus has cleared for us, and showed us the Way.

Therefore, 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so "to walk", even as he walked.



You omitted the most important part of Paul's teaching here, I addressed above.



I am selling nothing. I am only promoting ALL that is written in the Holy Scriptures, as opposed to living by the popular religious philosophies and traditions promoted by all the "Other voices" in the garden God placed me in.



You have your human teachers, Pancho has his. I believe in the teaching of the Holy Scriptures as Paul also taught.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (ALL) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

As it is also written:

Ecc. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

projecting again since you have the same view as the pharisees that Jesus rejected.

 

[Johann]

Accepting Jesus does not imply rejecting Moses.
Indeed, many people came to know Moses though Christ.
After 20 years of atheism I came back to Jesus through Bahaullah.

Contrary to what stands written in Scripture, @Pancho Frijoles and I have provided numerous references on how a person is to be saved. Yet, even these clear passages, you reason away by embracing a crossless, bloodless Messiah, denying the virgin birth, resurrection, and the literal second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 14:6: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

1 Peter 1:18-19: “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed... but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.”

Matthew 1:23: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means "God with us").

1 Corinthians 15:3-4: “For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures...”

Acts 1:11: “Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

You are not here to accept correction as it stands written, but rather to promote your peculiar brand of religion-one that distorts these essential doctrines of the faith. And it appears you do so with permission, but not in alignment with the truth of Scripture.

Galatians 1:8-9: “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse.”

Shalom

J.

 

[civic]

Jesus as God
The doctrine of Jesus as God is fundamental to salvation and an essential truth about the character of God. Below is a list of references that confirm the deity of Jesus and offer proof that he has always been and will always be God. Those who diminish, doubt, or deny the divinity of Jesus do so at the destruction of the scriptures.

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. “ – Heb 13:8

Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Matthew 14:26-33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 25:17-46 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. ~ See prophecies about God being the only saviour

Luke 19:43-44 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;

Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 1:3-4 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

J.

Yes when Paul tells us how one is saved and what they must confess is that Christ is YHWH the One Lord/ Only Lord one must believe to be saved- this Lord Paul identifies as YHWH.



Joel 2:32
32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the Lord has said,
Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.


Paul quotes this OT passage about YHWH and identifies Jesus who is the one and only Lord according to the N.T. a person must confess to be saved.

Romans 10:9-13
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of C all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

 

[civic]

And there is more of the same from the Apostles identifying Christ as YHWH

Jesus is the Lord in Joel, Isaiah and Jeremiah


Joel 2:27-32
27 "Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the Lord your God,
And there is no other;
And My people will never be put to shame.
28 " It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.
29 "Even on the male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 "The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.
32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Will be delivered;

For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the Lord has said,
Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

Rom 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."


Isa 45:21-24
Is it not I, the Lord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22 " Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 "I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.'

Phil 2:9-11
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 14:10-12
For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written,

" AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,

AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

1 Cor 2:8-9
the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

Jeremiah 17:10 the Lord says

"I the LORD search the heart, I test the mind. Even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings"

In Revelation 2:23 Jesus says
"I am He who searches the minds and hearts and I will give to each one of you according to your works"

So if Jesus is not God why would he claim to do something in Revelation that Yahweh claimed in Jeremiah?

So is it Yahweh or Jesus who searches hearts and minds?

The only name that can possibly be above all names is the name of YHWH. Even Non trinitarians are forced to agree with this one due to the fact that their own theology acknowledges that YHWH is greater in nature than Jesus. This means that Jesus shares the personal name and authority of YHWH, making Him God as no one can be equal to God except God alone.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31
(30) But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and
(31) righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
so that, just as it is written, "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

1 Corinthians 15:31
I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Jeremiah 9:23-24
23 Thus says the LORD, Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom, and let not the mighty man boast of his might, let not a rich man boast of his riches; 24 but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things,” declares the LORD.


Paul applies YHWH ('kyrios' in the LXX) from Jeremiah 9:24 in reference to Jesus in 1 Corinthians 1:31.
This demonstrates the Lord Jesus is YHWH.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

@Fred made this biblical and astute observation with sound exegesis from the Spirit of God. Amen brother !

The unitarians have no legs on which to stand upon they have been cut off at the hips by the Sword of the Spirit the Living Word of God/Christ


Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

Mark 14:62
And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

Daniel 7:13-14
(13) I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
(14) And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.


The Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of pelach in Daniel 7:14. One of the ways of offering pelach is by prayer (Daniel 6:10, 16).
This demonstrates the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.

According to Jesus in Luke 4:8 God alone is the proper recipient of latreuō. As with the above, one of the ways of rendering latreuō is by prayer (Luke 2:37). Since the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer proves He is the proper recipient of latreuō. This demonstrates He is God.

Remember, Luke 4:8 is a quotation from Deuteronomy 6:13 in what it teaches about the ONE YHWH of Deuteronomy 6:4. One cannot biblically affirm Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer, but deny He is YHWH.

n Judges 6:13 Gideon refers to the Messenger of YHWH as adoni.
Since the Messenger of YHWH is YHWH demonstrates Gideon was referring to YHWH as adoni.

Judges 6:11-23
11 The Messenger of the Lord came and sat under the oak tree in Ophrah that belonged to Joash from Abiezer’s family. Joash’s son Gideon was beating out wheat in a winepress to hide it from the Midianites.
12 The Messenger of the Lord appeared to Gideon and said, “The Lord is with you, brave man.”
13 Gideon responded, “Excuse me, sir! But if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all the miracles our ancestors have told us about? Didn’t they say, ‘The Lord brought us out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and has handed us over to Midian.”
14 The Lord turned to him and said, “You will rescue Israel from Midian with the strength you have. I am sending you.”
15 Gideon said to him, “Excuse me, sir! How can I rescue Israel? Look at my whole family. It’s the weakest one in Manasseh. And me? I’m the least important member of my family.”
16 The Lord replied, “I will be with you. You will defeat Midian as if it were only one man.”
17 Gideon said to him, “If you find me acceptable, give me a sign that it is really you speaking to me.
18 Don’t leave until I come back. I want to bring my gift and set it in front of you.”
“I will stay until you come back,” he said.
19 Then Gideon went into his house and prepared a young goat and unleavened bread made with 18 quarts of flour. He put the meat in a basket and the broth in a pot. Then he went out and presented them to the Messenger of the Lord under the oak tree.
20 The Messenger of the Lord told him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, put them on this rock, and pour the broth over them.” Gideon did so.
21 Then the Messenger of the Lord touched the meat and the bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared up from the rock and burned the meat and the bread. Then the Messenger of the Lord disappeared.
22 That’s when Gideon realized that this had been the Messenger of the Lord. So he said, “Lord God! I have seen the Messenger of the Lord face to face.”
23 The Lord said to him, “Calm down! Don’t be afraid. You will not die.” (GW)



Verse 12 - The Messenger of YHWH appears unto Gideon.
Verse 14 - The Messenger is described as the Lord (YHWH) which spoke unto Gideon.
Verse 17, 18 - Gideon asks "Him" (the Messenger of YHWH) not to depart.
Verse 18 - The Messenger of YHWH says He will wait until Gideon returns.
Verse 19 - Gideon brings out the food unto the Messenger of YHWH under the oak tree. This is where the Messenger of YHWH was originally (verse 11).
Verses 20-22 - Describes what the Messenger of YHWH did to Gideons' offer.

Notice also in verse 22 that Gideon realized that the Messenger to whom he referred to as "sir" (adoni) in Judges 6:13 was in fact YHWH! By seeing the Messenger (YHWH) face to face Gideon was in fear that he would die (cf. Exodus 33:20). This is why in the very next verse (23) YHWH assures Gideon that he will not die even though Gideon saw YHWH face to face.

 

[civic]

I will anticipate the next bogus argument from the uni camp about adonai and cut them off at the pass.

From BDB Hebrew lexicon once again proving uni's are wrong about Adonai. Just another unitarian strawman I just dismantled.

b. Adonay proper name of God, parallel with Yahweh, substitution for it often by scribal error, & eventually supplanting it. In earlier Isaiah 3:17 + (19 t. seeming to belong here), Amos 7:7,8; Amos 9:1; Ezekiel 18:25,29; Ezekiel 33:17,20; Ezekiel 21:14 (probably ׳אֲדֹנָי י as in usual phrase); Zechariah 9:4; Malachi 1:12,14; Lamentations 1:14 + (14 t.) Psalm 2:4; Psalm 37:13; Psalm 78:65; Psalm 90:17 (? יהוה) Psalm 110:5(Dalman puts most of these below (a); — many cases are doubtful); 1 Kings 3:10,15 (Masoretic אדני for יהוה compare Dalm 2 Kings 7:6; Dalm rightly questions; he reads יהוה). The phrases אֲדֹנָי אֱלֹהַיPsalm 38:16; Psalm 86:12, Adonay my God; אֲדֹנָי הָאֱלֹהִים Daniel 9:3, אֱלֹהֵינוּ ׳אDaniel 9:9,15, הָאֵל ׳א Daniel 9:4 favour taking ׳א Daniel 1:2; Daniel 9:7,8 (יהוה ?) Daniel 9:16; Daniel 9:17; Daniel 9:19; Daniel 9:19; Daniel 9:19 as the divine name.

4 אֲדֹנָי יהוה (a) my Lord Yahweh (see יהוה) Genesis 15:2,8 (JE) Joshua 7:7 (J, ᵐ5 omit ׳י) Deuteronomy 3:24; Deuteronomy 9:26; Judges 6:22; Judges 16:28; 2 Samuel 7:1 (6 t.) 1 Kings 2:26; 1 Kings 8:53; probably Amos 3:7,8; Amos 7:2,4,5; Amos 9:8; Jeremiah 1:6; Jeremiah 4:10; Jeremiah 14:13; Jeremiah 32:17,25; Ezekiel 4:14; Ezekiel 8:1; Ezekiel 9:6; Ezekiel 11:13; Ezekiel 20:49; Ezekiel 37:3 (׳יָדַע כִּי אֲני א ׳י) Ezekiel 13:9; Ezekiel 23:49; Ezekiel 24:24; Ezekiel 28:24; Ezekiel 29:16inappropriate in mouth of God; strike out אֲדֹנָי (Co) or read אֱלֹהֵיכֶם ׳י (Dalm); Micah 1:2; Zephaniah 1:7; Obadiah 1; Zechariah 9:14; Psalm 71:5; Psalm 71:16; Psalm 73:28; (b) apparently proper name Adonay Yahweh Isaiah 25:8; Jeremiah 44:26; exile Isaiah 40:10 + (10 t., but Isaiah 61:1,11 read יהוה, ᵐ5); (c) uncertain whether (a) or (b) in prophetic formula אָמַר ׳י ׳א Isaiah 7:7; Isaiah 28:16; Isaiah 30:15; Isaiah 49:22; Isaiah 51:4; Isaiah 65:13; Jeremiah 7:20; Amos 1:8; Amos 3:11; Amos 5:3; Amos 7:6; Obadiah 1; Ezekiel (131 t.); ׳י ׳נְאֻם אIsaiah 56:8; Jeremiah 2:22; Amos 3:13; Amos 4:5; Amos 8:3,9,11; Ezekiel (80 t.); ׳י ׳דְּבַראֿ Ezekiel 6:3; Ezekiel 25:3; Ezekiel 36:4; ׳י ׳נִשְׁבַּע א Amos 4:2; Amos 6:8; ׳י׳כֹּה הִרְאַנִי א Amos 7:1,4; Amos 8:1.

5 יהוה אֲדֹנָי Yahweh my Lord Psalm 68:21; Psalm 109:21; Psalm 140:8; Psalm 141:8; Habakkuk 3:9.

6 אֲדֹנָי יהוה צְבָאוֺת (a) my Lord Yahweh ‚.(see צבאות) Psalm 69:7; Amos 9:5; Isaiah 10:23; Isaiah 22:5,12; Isaiah 28:22compare ׳אֱלֹהֵי הַצְבָאוֺת א ׳י, Yahweh, the God of Hosts my Lord Amos 5:16; (b) a divine name, Adonay, Yahweh ‚. Jeremiah 46:10 (twice in verse); Jeremiah 50:25; (c) uncertain are ׳צ ׳י ׳כֹּה אָמַר א Isaiah 10:24; Isaiah 22:14,15; ׳נְאֻם א ׳צ ׳י Isaiah 3:15; Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 49:5; Jeremiah 50:31.

hope this helps !!!

 

[TomL]

They are not refering to doctrine, my brother.
They are refering to practice.
To know God and to know Jesus does not mean studying Theology, but to live the life of love. This is why “Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love” 1 John 4:8

Believing Jesus means doing what Jesus told us to do. he explained it this way:

Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. 48 They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.” Luke 6:46-49

Sorry your bald denial does not change the facts

You simply ignore the point that actions are based upon belief and there is a required set of belief to be saved

But as stated these show your error

Actually it is your statement which is not supported biblically

John 8:24Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
John 6:53 (LEB) — 53 Then Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life in yourselves!

John 17:3 (LEB) — 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 14:6 (LEB) — 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Believe? know? They refer to knowing and believing - doctrine

You can't be saved if you do not know and believe

You do not get to pick and choose which verses you will accept

 

[TomL]

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Inform him how often "doctrine" is referenced in Scripture and clarify what it means. He appears to have an unhealthy aversion to anything labeled as "doctrine" while not hesitating to promote the doctrines of the Bahá'í "faith."

J.

True

And he just ignores that which he does not like

Like commands for faith in Christ and his exclusive demands

 

[Johann]

True

And he just ignores that which he does not like

Like commands for faith in Christ and his exclusive demands

Correct-the Imperatives of Christ Jesus.

J.

 

[TomL]

Correct-the Imperatives of Christ Jesus.

J.

Despite his claims the way is narrow

Matthew 7:13 (LEB) — 13 “Enter through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it,

His views are just not consistent with the bible

 

[Johann]

Despite his claims the way is narrow

Matthew 7:13 (LEB) — 13 “Enter through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it,

His views are just not consistent with the bible

Search Bahai.org

The website of the worldwide Bahá’í community

www.bahai.org

If you want to read this, you will understand WHY his views are not consistent with the Scriptures brother.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The issue, as I see it, is that discussions about the Bahá'í faith should be encouraged but also brought under the scrutiny of God’s Word. Is it in line with the truth of Scripture? If not-and as I have shown, it is certainly not compatible with biblical teachings-it should be rejected after careful examination.

The core doctrines of Christianity, as clearly revealed in the Scriptures, include the virgin birth, the physical resurrection, and the literal second coming of Jesus Christ. These are not just symbolic or metaphorical truths; they are foundational to our faith. As it stands written:

Isaiah 7:14 prophesies the virgin birth: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”

1 Corinthians 15:17 affirms the necessity of the literal resurrection: “And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.”

Acts 1:11 speaks of the second coming: “Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Any belief or teaching contrary to these core truths about Yeshua (Jesus) is pushing a different gospel, which Paul strongly warns against.

Galatians 1:8-9: “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse.”

These doctrines are non-negotiable. They form the foundation of the Christian faith as revealed in the Scriptures. Any deviation from this, no matter the origin, leads away from the truth and should be discarded after it has been thoroughly scrutinized against the written Word of God.

Shalom.

J.

Dear @Johann , @civic , @TomL, @synergy

You are having a conversation with a person who is not a Christian.
In a conversation of this kind, we exchange views on why we believe what we believe.

Let me insist on this:
I find no ethical problem in believing in the deity of Jesus, an atonement of sins based on blood shedding, and a physical resurrection, even if I hold different views. You have reasons to believe these things. You are all intelligent and sincere. You all have brought verses that, according to your understanding, support those beliefs. If such doctrines have helped to love God and your neighbor, I congratulate you. I wouldn't want you to change anything.

Having said that, I do have an issue with thinking that people who do not share these beliefs, which account to the majority of people on earth, deserve to be tormented forever, physically and mentally, due to their religious convictions. That's a not-negotiable item for me. I am absolutely committed to fight such idea, not only because it is wrong... but because it is also perverse. It distorts God character, the purpose of religion, and it justifies genocide (not in this life, but in the afterlife). Being an atheist would be much better than holding such view. I say it seriously. My wife identifies herself as an atheist, and she would never approve an eternal torment for any religious people. So, her atheism is infinitely more moral than a false Christianism that sees justice in the permanent torture of Jews or Muslims .

So, in summary

• I am not at war with the Trinity, or blood atonement, or physical resurrection, even when I hold different views about these things.
• I am at war with the justification of an afterlife genocide based on divergent views on such doctrines.

Let me know if I must clarify my position further.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Contrary to what stands written in Scripture, @Pancho Frijoles and I have provided numerous references on how a person is to be saved. Yet, even these clear passages, you reason away by embracing a crossless, bloodless Messiah, denying the virgin birth, resurrection, and the literal second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The thread started as a discussion of a specific verse (John 17:3) in regard to who is God, and has evolved into a discussion on soteriology.
I suggest we transfer our discussion on how a person is saved to the Soteriology subforum.