For the Father to plan his Son's torture is unloving !

dizerner

Well-known member
It breaks Trinitarian harmony and pits the Father against the Son.

Why would a loving Father put his own Son in harm's way, that's not love?!

Therefore, the Father never planned for Jesus to die on the Cross.

Prove me wrong!
 
Christ volunteered to come to this earth and rescue us, come what may.

Yes, the evil realm pitted every ounce of evil against Christ, and sent all its esaus on earth to hurt and torture Christ... out of its deep hatred of God.
 
Christ volunteered to come to this earth and rescue us, come what may.

Yes, the evil realm pitted every ounce of evil against Christ, and sent all its esaus on earth to hurt and torture Christ... out of its deep hatred of God.
Exactly
 
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FAQ: Seeing as how human sacrifices are not allowed in the covenant that Moses'
people agreed upon with God in the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and
Deuteronomy; how then was it legal for Jesus-- a Jew whose religion was governed
by that covenant --to die for the sins of the world?


REPLY: The laws of God are not retroactive (Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13) This
is extremely important to note because Jesus was designated, and scheduled, to die
on a cross prior to God beginning to create the cosmos. (1Pet 1:18-21 & Rev 13:8)
_
 
.
FAQ: Seeing as how human sacrifices are not allowed in the covenant that Moses'
people agreed upon with God in the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and
Deuteronomy; how then was it legal for Jesus-- a Jew whose religion was governed
by that covenant --to die for the sins of the world?


REPLY: The laws of God are not retroactive (Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13) This
is extremely important to note because Jesus was designated, and scheduled, to die
on a cross prior to God beginning to create the cosmos. (1Pet 1:18-21 & Rev 13:8)
_
Yes the Father did not kill ,torture, pour out wrath ( anger, vengeance,retribution )on the Son as some teach, the Jews were responsible for His suffering, torture and death. As Peter preached in Acts Jesus blood was on their hands.
 
Just tell me what the Bible says,

the Law brings wrath

No, tell me what the Bible says,

the Law brings wrath

I swear I really wanna know

the Law brings wrath

I'm more sincere than you, you know

the Law brings wrath

I don't just preach what I've been taught

the Law brings wrath

I pray and think all for myself

the Law brings wrath

If you could only prove your point

the Law brings wrath

Maybe I'd admit you're right

the Law brings wrath

But all you got is eisegesis

the Law brings wrath

I purely read the words of Jesus

the Law brings wrath

So I'll dismiss ya, you got nuthin'

the Law brings wrath

Get a verse or you are frontin'

the Law brings wrath

yeah, you... you jus' got nuthin'

For the law brings wrath (Rom. 4:15)
 
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Just tell me what the Bible says,

the Law brings wrath

No, tell me what the Bible says,

the Law brings wrath

I swear I really wanna know

the Law brings wrath

I'm more sincere than you, you know

the Law brings wrath

I don't just preach what I've been taught

the Law brings wrath

I pray and think all for myself

the Law brings wrath

If you could only prove your point

the Law brings wrath

Maybe then admit you're right

the Law brings wrath

But all you got is eisegesis

the Law brings wrath

I purely read the words of Jesus

the Law brings wrath

So I'll dismiss ya, you got nuthin'

the Law brings wrath


Get a verse or you are frontin'

the Law brings wrath

yeah, you jus' got nuthin'

For the law brings wrath (Rom. 4:15)

What law are you referencing? The focus should be upon the "law of sin and death". Appealing to Moses in an Eternal application seems empty.
 
Just tell me what the Bible says,

the Law brings wrath

No, tell me what the Bible says,

the Law brings wrath

I swear I really wanna know

the Law brings wrath

I'm more sincere than you, you know

the Law brings wrath

I don't just preach what I've been taught

the Law brings wrath

I pray and think all for myself

the Law brings wrath

If you could only prove your point

the Law brings wrath

Maybe then admit you're right

the Law brings wrath

But all you got is eisegesis

the Law brings wrath

I purely read the words of Jesus

the Law brings wrath

So I'll dismiss ya, you got nuthin'

the Law brings wrath

Get a verse or you are frontin'

the Law brings wrath

yeah, you jus' got nuthin'

For the law brings wrath (Rom. 4:15)
wrath on the unrighteous, the rebellious, the reprobates,

never on the Holy, Righteous, Sinless, Perfect and Good One.
 
It breaks Trinitarian harmony and pits the Father against the Son.

Why would a loving Father put his own Son in harm's way, that's not love?!

Therefore, the Father never planned for Jesus to die on the Cross.

Prove me wrong!

In the context of the "suffering" Christ.

I've said this before and I'll say it here again. The power of Christ in the Incarnation easily overcame/accomplished redemption for humanity.

Though he was weak.....

2Co 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God.

Overwhelming power must be seen in the Crucifiction/Atonement

1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
 
how did I make an oops maybe I'm having a senor moment and didn't realize it rofl. :ROFLMAO:
Maybe I need another cup of coffee one wasn't enough. But I thought dizerner Post agreed with you. You're against PSA right? And it sounded like his post was also against it. But if that's not the case then the oops is on me. Just remember I have officially one oopsed ya.;)
 
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Maybe I need another cup of coffee one wasn't enough. But I thought dizerner Post agreed with you. You're against PSA right? And it sounded like his post was also against it. But if that's not the case then the oops is on me. Just remember I have officially one oopsed ya.;)
100% against it .

maybe I should reread it, oops
 
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Maybe I need another cup of coffee one wasn't enough. But I thought dizerner Post agreed with you. You're against PSA right? And it sounded like his post was also against it. But if that's not the case then the oops is on me. Just remember I have officially one oopsed ya.;)

I believe he was being sarcastic and making a logical argument in like manner to the argument made. His ultimate goal is to show there is no evidence for some aspects of the claim. At least..... that is how I saw it. My penny.
 
It breaks Trinitarian harmony and pits the Father against the Son.

Why would a loving Father put his own Son in harm's way, that's not love?!

Therefore, the Father never planned for Jesus to die on the Cross.

Prove me wrong!
A thorough study on Isa 53 would prove you wrong.
Shalom
J.
 
Yes the Father did not kill ,torture, pour out wrath ( anger, vengeance,retribution )on the Son as some teach, the Jews were responsible for His suffering, torture and death. As Peter preached in Acts Jesus blood was on their hands.
God did, but you don't understand what that means. You see violence (and there was violence), however, Jesus voluntarily told the Father that He accepts it. You have to understand the nature of Christ. He was both God and human. Both divine and human natures. Both communed in harmony and unity. In Christ you had both the Great High Priest that sanctifies the sacrifice, and the sacrifice that is sanctified. Both parts of the sacrifice existing in one body. While on the cross, the sin that was imputed to the sacrifice by the Great High Priest (read the sacrifice of atonement in the Old Testament), interrupted the communion that had existed from birth between the divine nature, which cannot know sin, cannot become sin, cannot fellowship with sin, from the human nature, which bore the sin imputed by the High Priest (divine nature) onto the sacrifice. The flesh, the humanity, the human, the sacrifice died on the cross. God did not die. However, Peter said that the flesh died, but the spirit was made alive. Alive how? By God. When a human (sinner) dies, the spirit remains dead and is separated from God and goes to torment in hell. When Jesus died, His spirit became alive. Why? No sin. He was sinless. Jesus was with the thief and all the other Old Testament believers in paradise. He was also going through to where the prisoners were chained, and was proclaiming His victory over sin, which those spirits had attempted to thwart during the days of Noah.

The line of "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken Me" was cried out when man's sin came between the flesh and the divine and the fellowship was interrupted. It ended when Jesus said "It is finished". God did not forsake His Son, however, the sin borne by Christ, by the sacrifice, interrupted the fellowship. God cannot have anything to do with sin. That moment comes through with Jesus crying out. This was what Jesus had asked to have pass Him. He knew what He would face. That is why He faced greater pain in the garden then most people will ever feel. This is why He sweat drops of blood. Yet He willingly put Himself aside and told the Father, not My will, but Yours be done. This is why Isaiah 53 says that the Father heaps glory and honor on the Son. This is why the Son is high and lifted up in Isaiah 53, after facing the pain of the beginning of Isaiah 53. He willing laid down His life for the sheep, and willingly took it up again, just as He said. The Jewish people had no power over Him, and He told them as much.
 
When people use the God cannot die argument, they seem to often have a physicalist or existential view of death, instead of a Biblical one.

Death, in the Bible, is not cessation of existence, as the annihilitationists argue. This would indeed be a reward for the wicked to find relief.

Death, in the Bible, is the experience of the negative aspects of relating to God—not separation from God altogether, but from experiencing his goodness.

If we pause to consider this new, Biblical, view of death, where God's presence still exists in hell, and the consciousness remains the entire time—we can see that "God dying," is not equal to "God ceasing to exist."

In fact, Christ suffering the punishment of our sins, was God experiencing himself in a negative way, not God disappearing, or being extinguished.
 
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