For the Father to plan his Son's torture is unloving !
- Thread starter Diserner
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
I proved it wrong here . I’m not going to continue repeating myself even though its been thoroughly addressed and refuted. How many threads do we need on this ? 50 more ?
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civic
Well-known member
Exactly
Diserner
Well-known member
Do you even read the posts, lol.
Olde Tymer
Well-known member
.
FAQ: Seeing as how human sacrifices are not allowed in the covenant that Moses'
people agreed upon with God in the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and
Deuteronomy; how then was it legal for Jesus-- a Jew whose religion was governed
by that covenant --to die for the sins of the world?
REPLY: The laws of God are not retroactive (Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13) This
is extremely important to note because Jesus was designated, and scheduled, to die
on a cross prior to God beginning to create the cosmos. (1Pet 1:18-21 & Rev 13:8)
_
FAQ: Seeing as how human sacrifices are not allowed in the covenant that Moses'
people agreed upon with God in the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and
Deuteronomy; how then was it legal for Jesus-- a Jew whose religion was governed
by that covenant --to die for the sins of the world?
REPLY: The laws of God are not retroactive (Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13) This
is extremely important to note because Jesus was designated, and scheduled, to die
on a cross prior to God beginning to create the cosmos. (1Pet 1:18-21 & Rev 13:8)
_
civic
Well-known member
Yes the Father did not kill ,torture, pour out wrath ( anger, vengeance,retribution )on the Son as some teach, the Jews were responsible for His suffering, torture and death. As Peter preached in Acts Jesus blood was on their hands.
Diserner
Well-known member
Just tell me what the Bible says,
the Law brings wrath
No, tell me what the Bible says,
the Law brings wrath
I swear I really wanna know
the Law brings wrath
I'm more sincere than you, you know
the Law brings wrath
I don't just preach what I've been taught
the Law brings wrath
I pray and think all for myself
the Law brings wrath
If you could only prove your point
the Law brings wrath
Maybe I'd admit you're right
the Law brings wrath
But all you got is eisegesis
the Law brings wrath
I purely read the words of Jesus
the Law brings wrath
So I'll dismiss ya, you got nuthin'
the Law brings wrath
Get a verse or you are frontin'
the Law brings wrath
yeah, you... you jus' got nuthin'
For the law brings wrath (Rom. 4:15)
the Law brings wrath
No, tell me what the Bible says,
the Law brings wrath
I swear I really wanna know
the Law brings wrath
I'm more sincere than you, you know
the Law brings wrath
I don't just preach what I've been taught
the Law brings wrath
I pray and think all for myself
the Law brings wrath
If you could only prove your point
the Law brings wrath
Maybe I'd admit you're right
the Law brings wrath
But all you got is eisegesis
the Law brings wrath
I purely read the words of Jesus
the Law brings wrath
So I'll dismiss ya, you got nuthin'
the Law brings wrath
Get a verse or you are frontin'
the Law brings wrath
yeah, you... you jus' got nuthin'
For the law brings wrath (Rom. 4:15)
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
What law are you referencing? The focus should be upon the "law of sin and death". Appealing to Moses in an Eternal application seems empty.
civic
Well-known member
wrath on the unrighteous, the rebellious, the reprobates,
never on the Holy, Righteous, Sinless, Perfect and Good One.
Obadiah
Well-known member
That was civic Oops
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
In the context of the "suffering" Christ.
I've said this before and I'll say it here again. The power of Christ in the Incarnation easily overcame/accomplished redemption for humanity.
Though he was weak.....
2Co 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God.
Overwhelming power must be seen in the Crucifiction/Atonement
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
civic
Well-known member
how did I make an oops maybe I'm having a senor moment and didn't realize it rofl.That was civic Oops
Obadiah
Well-known member
Maybe I need another cup of coffee one wasn't enough. But I thought dizerner Post agreed with you. You're against PSA right? And it sounded like his post was also against it. But if that's not the case then the oops is on me. Just remember I have officially one oopsed ya.how did I make an oops maybe I'm having a senor moment and didn't realize it rofl.
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civic
Well-known member
100% against it .Maybe I need another cup of coffee one wasn't enough. But I thought dizerner Post agreed with you. You're against PSA right? And it sounded like his post was also against it. But if that's not the case then the oops is on me. Just remember I have officially one oopsed ya.
maybe I should reread it, oops
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Maybe I need another cup of coffee one wasn't enough. But I thought dizerner Post agreed with you. You're against PSA right? And it sounded like his post was also against it. But if that's not the case then the oops is on me. Just remember I have officially one oopsed ya.
I believe he was being sarcastic and making a logical argument in like manner to the argument made. His ultimate goal is to show there is no evidence for some aspects of the claim. At least..... that is how I saw it. My penny.
Diserner
Well-known member
And you are a perceptive person.
God did, but you don't understand what that means. You see violence (and there was violence), however, Jesus voluntarily told the Father that He accepts it. You have to understand the nature of Christ. He was both God and human. Both divine and human natures. Both communed in harmony and unity. In Christ you had both the Great High Priest that sanctifies the sacrifice, and the sacrifice that is sanctified. Both parts of the sacrifice existing in one body. While on the cross, the sin that was imputed to the sacrifice by the Great High Priest (read the sacrifice of atonement in the Old Testament), interrupted the communion that had existed from birth between the divine nature, which cannot know sin, cannot become sin, cannot fellowship with sin, from the human nature, which bore the sin imputed by the High Priest (divine nature) onto the sacrifice. The flesh, the humanity, the human, the sacrifice died on the cross. God did not die. However, Peter said that the flesh died, but the spirit was made alive. Alive how? By God. When a human (sinner) dies, the spirit remains dead and is separated from God and goes to torment in hell. When Jesus died, His spirit became alive. Why? No sin. He was sinless. Jesus was with the thief and all the other Old Testament believers in paradise. He was also going through to where the prisoners were chained, and was proclaiming His victory over sin, which those spirits had attempted to thwart during the days of Noah.
The line of "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken Me" was cried out when man's sin came between the flesh and the divine and the fellowship was interrupted. It ended when Jesus said "It is finished". God did not forsake His Son, however, the sin borne by Christ, by the sacrifice, interrupted the fellowship. God cannot have anything to do with sin. That moment comes through with Jesus crying out. This was what Jesus had asked to have pass Him. He knew what He would face. That is why He faced greater pain in the garden then most people will ever feel. This is why He sweat drops of blood. Yet He willingly put Himself aside and told the Father, not My will, but Yours be done. This is why Isaiah 53 says that the Father heaps glory and honor on the Son. This is why the Son is high and lifted up in Isaiah 53, after facing the pain of the beginning of Isaiah 53. He willing laid down His life for the sheep, and willingly took it up again, just as He said. The Jewish people had no power over Him, and He told them as much.
Diserner
Well-known member
When people use the God cannot die argument, they seem to often have a physicalist or existential view of death, instead of a Biblical one.
Death, in the Bible, is not cessation of existence, as the annihilitationists argue. This would indeed be a reward for the wicked to find relief.
Death, in the Bible, is the experience of the negative aspects of relating to God—not separation from God altogether, but from experiencing his goodness.
If we pause to consider this new, Biblical, view of death, where God's presence still exists in hell, and the consciousness remains the entire time—we can see that "God dying," is not equal to "God ceasing to exist."
In fact, Christ suffering the punishment of our sins, was God experiencing himself in a negative way, not God disappearing, or being extinguished.
Death, in the Bible, is not cessation of existence, as the annihilitationists argue. This would indeed be a reward for the wicked to find relief.
Death, in the Bible, is the experience of the negative aspects of relating to God—not separation from God altogether, but from experiencing his goodness.
If we pause to consider this new, Biblical, view of death, where God's presence still exists in hell, and the consciousness remains the entire time—we can see that "God dying," is not equal to "God ceasing to exist."
In fact, Christ suffering the punishment of our sins, was God experiencing himself in a negative way, not God disappearing, or being extinguished.
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