For the Father to plan his Son's torture is unloving !

Why do you think he allowed it?
Christ, His Son, Volunteered.

There was a dilemma, man in Eden had followed adam
after the fall... and succumbed to the evil realm (sin and death realm)...

There was no way we could get out of there (in the other reality
or here, in this reality, on our own...
this reality now being a satellite of the enemy principalities...
and the atrocities committed against us are literally horrific.... and
are delineated in hieroglyphs and other ancient texts
as bragging points.
Cosmology was affected!

compare how much the left today gleefully gloats
at their crimes...same type of thing in ancient pagan texts,
gleefully bragging of making eden fall --
but at the fall this was 100x magnified the hatred
and cruelty of the satanic realm against us...
because of their jealousy.)

We were tortured before we even got to this current planet.
Christ played that out, and not only suffered the cross,
but the same torture in the other reality to even be incarnated...
he was tortured 2X! He came the same way we did to get here to this
prison!

This wasand is a rescue mission. We are His Family.
Christ His son in whom the sons are in the image of,
Volunteered to rescue us!
 
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1. Do all Christians start out as baby Christians? Why?

2. Why does Peter use so many OT titles to describe NT believers?

3. What is the significance of believers being called "stones?"

4. Why is our lifestyle so important?

5. Why should we as Christians obey governmental authority?

6. Why did Christianity not attack slavery?

7. What was Peter's advice to those in unfair circumstances?

8. What is the significance of Christ's death?

Answering a question with a question suggests you disagree.
So I will take that as "You disagree" and move on with life.

Shalom shalom.
 
Do you think people pre-existed before their physical lives here?
Yes,
All souls are born in/near eden (now desolated)
before coming to this earth, which is the fallen situation.

and no, I don't believe in reincarnation..that is pagan.

Most of the prophet chapters refer to the other reality and
use transcendent language in those cases...past, present and future events are discussed,
regarding our land, Eden paradise, and regarding this earth and also describing the satanic principalities and cities.
yes, the OT also refers to the current prison too... but mostly (until Noah left that place
and brought us here) it describes the other reality, where Eden was desolated
and we, His Sons and daughters, were captured to the satanic realm entities..
because of Adam.
 
Well, not physically.

There is a hell though.
They did torture us physically, though
not in the type of physicality of this earth...
(not explaining that here.)

Yes, there is a hell.

but the current one we are in is not the hell I think you meant to refer to,
where those monsters will go for what they did to us.
 
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Technically, it was just "evil men" according to scripture.
truelll who, if you are only looking at it from the aspect of on this earth only,
are in bondage to Entities.

But, I was (also) including the transcendent set of events, and the transcendent language
is there to be read. Not all events 'happen here' and often
there is a counterpart in the other reality,
which is played out here either as a foreshadowing (for us now) or
to remember past events in the other world, after the fall and before
this earth at Noah time.

Every word of scripture applies to us.
and we will return Home. šŸ’•
 
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1 Jn 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Yes propitiation there cannot mean sooth anger and must mean something else than what is taught in christendom. God says love 3 times in that passage so it cannot mean anger being soothed. It means expiation as in covering for sin.

I always go to Christ who is God as my primary source of truth. His teaching must not contradict anyone else in scripture. If there seems to be a contradiction then it is with mans understanding on the topic not from Jesus teaching. He is God and He is the authority on all things. Not once did Jesus even hint Hid death was propitiation as taught by the reformers meaning appeasing an angry deity- that concept is pagan. That is why propitiation is not a good translation, expiation is the better translation and meaning in 1 John.

How did He view His own death- the atonement ?

We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15 Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28- Expiation

The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John. Godsā€™ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Godsā€™ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin.

If we were to read propitiation ( appease an angry god as the meaning ) in 1 John 4:10 look at how absurd if reads.

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to appease our angry god , to appease His anger, to appease his angry self etc.......for our sins.

That makes no sense at all theologically , grammatically or contextually. Itā€™s a contradiction, an oxymoron.


hope this helps !!!
 
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Here are the only three uses of ā€œpropitiationā€ in the KJV:

ā€œWhom God hath set forth to be a propitiation (G2435) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.ā€ (Rom 3:25-26)

ā€œAnd he is the propitiation (G2434) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.ā€ (1 John 2:2)

ā€œHerein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation (G2434) for our sins.ā€ (1 John 4:10)

As we will see, this is a very poor word to use to translate the original Greek.

Here are the definitions given for the Greek words used for propitiation:

Original Word Definitions

G2434 Ī¹Ģ”Ī»Ī±ĻƒĪ¼ĻŒĻ‚ hilasmos hil-as-mosā€™

a root word; n m;
AV-propitiation 2; 2
1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

G2435 Ī¹Ģ”Ī»Ī±ĻƒĻ„Ī®ĻĪ¹ĪæĪ½ hilasterion hil-as-tayā€™-ree-on
from a derivative of G2433; n n;
AV-propitiation 1, mercyseat 1; 2
1) relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation
1a)
used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated); hence the lid of expiation, the propitiatory
1b) an expiatory sacrifice
1c) an expiatory victim

Since G2435 comes from G2433 we should look at that word:

2433 Ī¹Ģ”Ī»Ī¬ĻƒĪŗĪæĪ¼Ī±Ī¹ hilaskomai hil-asā€™-kom-ahee
middle voice from the same as 2436; v;
AV-be merciful 1, make reconciliation 1; 2
1) to render oneā€™s self, to appease, conciliate to oneā€™s self
1a) to become propitious, be placated or appeased
1b) to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful
2) to expiate, make propitiation for

There is only one other verse that uses ā€œhilasterionā€ (G2435):

ā€œAnd over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; (G2435) of which we cannot now speak particularly.ā€ (Heb 9:5)

That verse suggests that ā€œhilasterionā€ is a place where mercy is given ā€“ quite different from the usual meaning of propitiation.

So, if that word had been used in Romans 3:25, would that give the verse a different meaning?

ā€œWhom God hath set forth to be a propitiation mercy seat ā€¦ā€

It literally means ā€œa place or means of reconciliation, a place where atonement or unity and at-one-ment takes place.ā€

The only two verses that use ā€œhilaskomaiā€ (G2433) are:

ā€œAnd the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful (G2433) to me a sinner.ā€ (Luke 18:13)

ā€œWherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for (G2433) the sins of the people.ā€ (Heb 2:17)

Those verses do not suggest anything like propitiation. What are the effects of the translation of a word meaning mercy seat as propitiation? They canā€™t be good.

Where did the Concept of Propitiation Come From?

Many (if not all) pagan cultures embrace the concept of propitiation and appeasement. Here is another example of modern misunderstanding:

ā€œā€¦ Propitiation is an ancient word, which we as Christians have in common with other world religions. To propitiate a god is to offer a sacrifice that turns aside the godā€™s wrath. Anyone who believes in a god knows that they need some way to stay on the friendly side of that god. So they give gifts to the god, or serve in the temple, or give alms. And if the god is angry with them, they pay a price, or make a sacrifice, or find some way to soothe the godā€™s anger: they propitiate him.ā€(https://maney.us/blog/2014/03/25/trevin-wax-pagan-propitiation-vs-biblical-propitiation/)

Do we really need a way to stay on the friendly side of God? What about ā€œGod is loveā€?

Here are verses using ā€œpropitiationā€ (in the KJV):

ā€œGod presented Jesus as the way and the means of restoration. Now, through the trust established by the evidence of Godā€™s character revealed when Christ died, we may partake of the Remedy procured by Christ. God did this to demonstrate that he is right and good ā€” because in his forbearance he suspended, for a time, the ultimate consequence of us being out of harmony with his design for life ā€” yet he has been falsely accused of being unfair. 26 He did it to demonstrate at the present time how right and good he is, so that he would also be seen as being right when he heals those who trust in Jesus.ā€ (Rom 3:25-26, )

ā€œThis is what real love is: It is not that we have loved God, or that we have done something to get him to love us, but that he loved us so much that he sent his Son to become the Remedy and cure for the infection of sin and selfishness so that through him we might be restored into perfect unity with God.ā€ (1 John 4:10, ) https://characterofgod.org/propitiation-definition/

hope this helps !!!
 
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