The so-called "atonement" is recycled pagan "blood magic"

[Studyman]

Where is the talk of repentance here? Is repentance not "sacrifice"? Jesus said to count the cost. Not the cost to HIM, but the cost to us. There is no forgiveness without sacrifice. If I steal from your home and get caught. You might forgive me. If I steal again, and get caught, I might say I'm sorry and will never do it again, you would forgive me again. But if I stole again, and again, and again, there would come a time where you no longer believe I am repentant. And you will take steps to protect your belongings and kids from me. You will warn your friends, as you should, to "Take heed" they are not deceived by me. True repentance requires sacrifice. To kill the man that steals, and put on a new man, who doesn't steal. This man can hope for forgiveness. As the Christ of the Bible Himself teaches. Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Jesus doesn't stop stealing for me. That is a sacrifice I must make. That is the cost to me. Just as the Priest didn't kill the goat for me, I killed my goat, and offered it to God through His Priest.

According to Scriptures, there is no atonement without sacrifice.

 

[Rockson]

Where is the talk of repentance here? Is repentance not "sacrifice"? Jesus said to count the cost. Not the cost to HIM, but the cost to us. There is no forgiveness without sacrifice. If I steal from your home and get caught. You might forgive me. If I steal again, and get caught, I might say I'm sorry and will never do it again, you would forgive me again. But if I stole again, and again, and again, there would come a time where you no longer believe I am repentant. And you will take steps to protect your belongings and kids from me. You will warn your friends, as you should, to "Take heed" they are not deceived by me. True repentance requires sacrifice. To kill the man that steals, and put on a new man, who doesn't steal. This man can hope for forgiveness. As the Christ of the Bible Himself teaches. Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Jesus doesn't stop stealing for me. That is a sacrifice I must make. That is the cost to me. Just as the Priest didn't kill the goat for me, I killed my goat, and offered it to God through His Priest.

According to Scriptures, there is no atonement without sacrifice.

You're right of course but I'd say that should be it's own separate thread. Posters here I think are focusing upon the one aspect of what God did through Jesus and how it all did apply. So can a person just mentally assent to atonement beliefs without any thought of making Jesus Lord of their lives and submitting to what we call a sanctification process? I think not. But you don't have your whole life santified before God and then consider maybe you're saved. No it's a process. But you're saved upon receiving the Lordship of Christ but then we walk it out allowing his Spirit and Word to overcome sin in our lives.

 

[sethproton]

Jesus forgave many peoples sins without a sacrifice, without His atonement for sins. Just His words spoken to them and their sins were forgiven.

Where did their wrath condemnation and judgement go ?

hope this helps !!!

give me a specific example. it could be worth discussion
but if you are claiming that in the whole of the OT, God never has wrath against men?

 

[civic]

give me a specific example. it could be worth discussion
but if you are claiming that in the whole of the OT, God never has wrath against men?

Against the rebellious sinner

 

[Dizerner]

All forgiveness for sins before the Cross are connected to the Work of Christ:

because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Rom. 3:25-26 NKJ)

 

[101G]

No, God does not need to torture his own Son to extract his blood to forgive you.

God is merciful and loving, and God forgives without torturing innocent people.

God is in harmony, the Father doesn't need his own Son's blood to "cover" people, that's disgusting, and disharmony in the Trinity.

Evil people killed Jesus, not God, it has nothing to do with using blood.

God forgives people in the Bible without any blood.

God is love, the Bible says so.

Not saying you're right or wrong, but for those under a covenant it was. for that was the agreement.
Hebrews 9:21 "Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry." Hebrews 9:22 "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." Hebrews 9:23 "It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." Hebrews 9:24 "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:" Hebrews 9:25 "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;" Hebrews 9:26 "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

101G.

 

[Dizerner]

Not saying you're right or wrong, but for those under a covenant it was. for that was the agreement.

You have to read the whole thread to get the context.

 

[sethproton]

Against the rebellious sinner

Where does that wrath go when a person believes?

 

[civic]

Where does that wrath go when a person believes?

False equivalency where does the Bible imply wrath needs to go somewhere. You have yet to establish it’s true

 

[Dizerner]

The wages of sin is death. you can't just bypass it.

 

[sethproton]

Not according to Jesus in the 7 passages I quoted . He forgave them their sins . You are limiting the Almighty God by a doctrine you hold and saying what He can and cannot do with forgiving sins.

That was not eternal salavation. You have to recieve Jesus indwelling you for eternal salvation

 

[sethproton]

False equivalency where does the Bible imply wrath needs to go somewhere. You have yet to establish it’s true

You don't believe that the OT prophesies the New?
There the wrath of God was moved off of people by aninal sacrifices

 

[civic]

You don't believe that the OT prophesies the New?
There the wrath of God was moved off of people by aninal sacrifices

No see here

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/ot-sacrifices-did-they-cover-sin-and-provide-forgiveness.348/

 

[Studyman]

Against the rebellious sinner

Actually no. In the Priesthood Law that was "ADDED" because of Transgressions, "Till the SEED should come", when a man sinned, and his sin was made known to him, God's wrath was not directed against this sinner.

The sinner was to take an innocent goat, the very best in his possession, bring it to the Priest, and Kill it for his sin. There was a cost for his sin that he bore, but the death sentence that was to be his, was placed on the goat that didn't deserve this treatment. The goat was guilty of no wrongdoing but was killed because of the actions of another. God showed this sinner incredible mercy and compassion, by placing the wrath that was supposed to be on the sinner, on an innocent life instead.

This is why it is so important to take God seriously. He placed the death men deserved, on a life who was completely innocent, out of Mercy and Compassion for them. His Own Son.

Now what?

Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[sethproton]

Actually no. In the Priesthood Law that was "ADDED" because of Transgressions, "Till the SEED should come", when a man sinned, and his sin was made known to him, God's wrath was not directed against this sinner.

The sinner was to take an innocent goat, the very best in his possession, bring it to the Priest, and Kill it for his sin. There was a cost for his sin that he bore, but the death sentence that was to be his, was placed on the goat that didn't deserve this treatment. The goat was guilty of no wrongdoing but was killed because of the actions of another. God showed this sinner incredible mercy and compassion, by placing the wrath that was supposed to be on the sinner, on an innocent life instead.

This is why it is so important to take God seriously. He placed the death men deserved, on a life who was completely innocent, out of Mercy and Compassion for them. His Own Son.

Now what?

Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

What was rightly directed at a sinner, the wrath they incurred when they sinned, was instead directed at the sacrifice.
And the sacrifice was prophetic of Christ

 

[Rockson]

The sinner was to take an innocent goat, the very best in his possession, bring it to the Priest, and Kill it for his sin. There was a cost for his sin that he bore, but the death sentence that was to be his, was placed on the goat that didn't deserve this treatment.

So how is this any different then what the poster on here puts forth that doesn't want or like the word wrath being used in relation to Jesus on the cross? They believe there was a cost for sin......they believe Jesus took upon himself the death sentence, and that Jesus really didn't deserve the treatment except for the reason he'd take it to be our substititure? So again what's the big difference between you and they?

The goat was guilty of no wrongdoing but was killed because of the actions of another. God showed this sinner incredible mercy and compassion, by placing the wrath that was supposed to be on the sinner, on an innocent life instead.

Hold it now, stop right there. Now you've just imposed something into the account from Lev 16:15 that isn't in the actual text. You've insisted upon stating by "placing the wrath that was supposed to be on the sinner...." Now I wouldn't take a conniption fit for you doing so if you want to consider death sentence to be called wrath fair enough....do as you please.....BUT it is not in the actual text phrased that way.

Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. Lev 16

So tell me why it couldn't be said the sacrifice received the judgment for sin. You yourself in the post called it a death sentence. The other poster you're debating believes the same thing. Are you saying if you just call it a death sentence it's not the same thing if you don't put in the word wrath? If it's a death sentence it's a death sentence and the cost is all the same regardless of what words you use. If not tell me why it wouldn't be.

This is why it is so important to take God seriously. He placed the death men deserved, on a life who was completely innocent, out of Mercy and Compassion for them. His Own Son.

A very powerful great truth but who here is arguing God the Father didn't give the sentence of death upon Christ?

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Another truth that should be taken seriously. I can't see how anyone has done that here though and I'd be careful in insisting anybody has. And maybe you're not doing that not saying that you are but if so I'd suggest you'd need to dial that back . Nobody here has counted the blood of Jesus a unholy thing. God Bless.

 

[civic]

What was rightly directed at a sinner, the wrath they incurred when they sinned, was instead directed at the sacrifice.
And the sacrifice was prophetic of Christ

Show me anywhere in the bible where God said " My wrath is on the animal sacrifice "

Show me anywhere where God said " My wrath occurs when a man sins "

Also do you sin ? where is Gods wrath ?

And when my co-worker who is an unbelievers sins where is Gods wrath against them ? They got a raise for sinning against me, taken out to lunch and celebrated. How is that Gods wrath ? It looks more like a reward, a blessing.

The above is an example that does happen in real life.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Studyman]

So how is this any different then what the poster on here puts forth that doesn't want or like the word wrath being used in relation to Jesus on the cross?

I was simply posting my understanding of the Priesthood that foreshadowed the coming Messiah.

Is. 54: 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

I don't recall ever saying what you are attributing to me. I was replying to the post regarding God's wrath in the Law and Prophets being "Against the rebellious sinner".

If this was true, men would all be killed, and not the goat.

They believe there was a cost for sin......they believe Jesus took upon himself the death sentence, and that Jesus really didn't deserve the treatment except for the reason he'd take it to be our substititure? So again what's the big difference between you and they?

It's not about "you and they", or me and anybody, in my view. My post is my understanding of what transpired in Scriptures that has been characterized as "the-so-called-atonement-is-recycled-pagan-blood-magic".

Jesus knew that "many" who professed to know Him, (Holy ONE of Israel) would murder Him for telling them the truth because HE knew the Prophesies regarding Himself in the Scriptures. I believe this because of Scripture.

Luke 24: 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

He knew this, but HE came anyway and offered to God His own life for those who would repent and turn to God. That is, men from Adam to moment of His Prophesied Return.

Hold it now, stop right there. Now you've just imposed something into the account from Lev 16:15 that isn't in the actual text.

I never quoted Lev. 16:15. Not once in my reply. What are you even talking about? I was recalling Lev. 4.

You've insisted upon stating by "placing the wrath that was supposed to be on the sinner...." Now I wouldn't take a conniption fit for you doing so if you want to consider death sentence to be called wrath fair enough....do as you please.....BUT it is not in the actual text phrased that way.

Lev. 4: 27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; 28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. 29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering. 30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. 31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

This was the Priesthood Law that was ADDED "because of Transgressions".

Numbers 1: 53 But the Levites shall pitch round about the tabernacle of testimony, that there be no wrath upon the congregation of the children of Israel: and the Levites shall keep the charge of the tabernacle of testimony.

Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. Lev 16

This was the duty of the Levite Priest regarding the Feast of Atonement. That you don't know this undeniable Biblical truth, but are on this forum preaching to others, should bring you pause.

Lev. 16:29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you: 30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD. 31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.

So tell me why it couldn't be said the sacrifice received the judgment for sin.

If your statement was amended to read "The sacrifice received the punishment for sin". This would be true. The Sacrificed was NEVER Judged as a wrong doer, at least not by the God of the Bible.

You yourself in the post called it a death sentence.

I was posting my understanding of the scriptures.

Ex. 31: 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

How is this not a death sentence.

The other poster you're debating believes the same thing. Are you saying if you just call it a death sentence it's not the same thing if you don't put in the word wrath? If it's a death sentence it's a death sentence and the cost is all the same regardless of what words you use. If not tell me why it wouldn't be.

I'm not sure who you are addressing here. My post wasn't to you. I'm not here to justify your beliefs or promote your religion. I simply replied to a post that implied that God's wrath was directed "Against the rebellious sinner". When, it seems to me, according to Scriptures, that God showed incredible Mercy, and was unbelievingly longsuffering.

Everyone is, at one time in their life, a "rebellious sinner". Maybe Civic meant something different, but it struck me as worthy of a discussion. Wrath, punishment, penalty, guilty, you are free to spend your time parsing these words if you like. I was not engaged in such a practice when I replied to Civic.

A very powerful great truth but who here is arguing God the Father didn't give the sentence of death upon Christ?

It seems important to understand that men, who professed to know God, murdered the innocent man Jesus for telling them the Truth about their own religion. God didn't kill His Own Son. God knew it was coming, given HE sees the end from the beginning, and HE allowed it. HE turned His face away, and let self-righteous religious hypocrites murder His Son. But God never Judged His Son as guilty. His Son took on Himself the death Sentence, and in Mercy for men, His Father allowed it.

John 10: 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

So then, the "Death Sentence" or "God's Wrath" or "Punishment" or "wages of Sin" or whatever, that was to be directed towards the Sinner, the Jesus "of the Bible" took upon Himself. And His Father accepted HIS Offer on their behalf.

Another truth that should be taken seriously. I can't see how anyone has done that here though and I'd be careful in insisting anybody has.
And maybe you're not doing that not saying that you are but if so I'd suggest you'd need to dial that back . Nobody here has counted the blood of Jesus a unholy thing. God Bless.

In my defense, the Scripture I posted was in a thread titled "the-so-called-atonement-is-recycled-pagan-blood-magic."

 

[civic]

You don't believe that the OT prophesies the New?
There the wrath of God was moved off of people by aninal sacrifices

The NT always interprets the OT. And guess what the only passage in all of the OT that infers wrath in Isaiah 53 Jesus and the Apostles left out of the N.T. There is a good reason for that being that it didn't happen especially the way you and others believe it happened. There is no verse in all the N.T. saying Jesus suffered Gods wrath. He suffered anger, wrath, retribution at the hands of wicked men who tortured and killed Him.

Why don't you believe Jesus and the Apostles below ?

Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 2:36
“Therefore, let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

Acts 4:10- Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree
Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life

Matthew 20:18-19
“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life."

Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.

Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take

conclusion: The One who made Atonement for my sins completely left out PSA and not once mentioned it or hinted at it in any way, shape or form. He said His death was a substitution, ransom, Passover, sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins. and There was no wrath from the Father to the Son. The anger, wrath, vengeance, retribution as the Apostles taught in Acts and Jesus taught in the gospels came from evil and wicked men.

hope this helps !!!

 

[sethproton]

Show me anywhere in the bible where God said " My wrath is on the animal sacrifice "

Show me anywhere where God said " My wrath occurs when a man sins "

Also do you sin ? where is Gods wrath ?

And when my co-worker who is an unbelievers sins where is Gods wrath against them ? They got a raise for sinning against me, taken out to lunch and celebrated. How is that Gods wrath ? It looks more like a reward, a blessing.

The above is an example that does happen in real life.

hope this helps !!!

The first thing to understand is that God's wrath was on people KjV Ex 20:24.
This answers your second question:KJV Ex 20:24

The NT always interprets the OT. And guess what the only passage in all of the OT that infers wrath in Isaiah 53 Jesus and the Apostles left out of the N.T. There is a good reason for that being that it didn't happen especially the way you and others believe it happened. There is no verse in all the N.T. saying Jesus suffered Gods wrath. He suffered anger, wrath, retribution at the hands of wicked men who tortured and killed Him.

Why don't you believe Jesus and the Apostles below ?

Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 2:36
“Therefore, let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

Acts 4:10- Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree
Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life

Matthew 20:18-19
“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life."

Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.

Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take

conclusion: The One who made Atonement for my sins completely left out PSA and not once mentioned it or hinted at it in any way, shape or form. He said His death was a substitution, ransom, Passover, sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins. and There was no wrath from the Father to the Son. The anger, wrath, vengeance, retribution as the Apostles taught in Acts and Jesus taught in the gospels came from evil and wicked men.

hope this helps !!!

Did you read the first quote you posted Acts 2:23 Whose plan was it for Jesus to die? Whose plan delivered him up?